Electric burners - Any builders out there?

[CidahMastah]

This post started out an an ebuild feeler for me. Well wouldn't you know it that I ended up going electric with a simple control panel. Inevitably that lead to an upgraded design for a larger more comprehensive brew control panel in less than a year along with the build of a steel rig. This has officially become my brewery build thread.

That said some folks who come across this thread may wish to skip through the initial posts and go to the highlights, as there is a lot of very basic question answering going on for my first build. If that is the case please feel free to use the reference links I have posted below.


REFERENCE POSTS:

How to configure, autotune, etc your PID - Post #307

How to drill your pot for your electric element - Post #335

Brew Build 2.0 Starts! - Post #474

Wiring Diagram for 2.0 (draft) - Post 463

Contactor wiring for power main switch - Post 528

Controller build 2.0 photos! - Post 536

How to wire my stir motor and what capacitor to use - Post 552

How I insulated my pots and why - Post 575

How we did our Herms coil - Post TBD

Final build immortalized (photos) - Post 576 - 579

Sankey Kegging Info




Original opening post:

I am noticing the wicked consumption of propane on my burner, and with 90 minute boils killing my propane, I am really interested in looking into an electric burner.

I am a jack of all trades (woodworking, cars, building structures, masonry, computers, agriculture, landscaping, etc.), but I know very little about electric. It seems like most people are building their burners from scratch (something which I have little experience).

Are there any suitable off the shelf electric burners out there? I have a 15 gallon set up and right now only have the need for max 10 gallon batches (figure boil volume of 13 gallons).

Does anybody sell these burners, or would be interested in selling one they made?

From what I have read a 5000W-9000W would be the range I am looking for, but would appreciate any advice.

I have dedicated 30 amp breaker in my garage that I was planning on using for the hook up, but none of my lines are set up for 220.

Thanks for advice, and or help.

 

[Jawbox0]

Take a look in the electric forum, there are many of us brewing in Electric kettles.

Most people are using either a fixed element (or two) in the pot or a removable heatstick both of which use water heater elements submerged in the wort to boil.

Unfortunately for you, the biggest commonly available 110V element is 2000W which probably isn't going to get 10 gallons of liquid to a boil very well.

On the other hand, you could run two 1500W elements for a total of 26W which is a little high for running on a 30A circuit, especially if you have pumps, lights, freezers or anything else in the garage.

Do you have a second circuit that you could use?

 

[CidahMastah]

I have a second 15 amp circuit in the garage that I can use also. I believe it is all hooked up to GFI (I know the 15 amp is). Right now there isn't anything but lights and a garage door opener hooked up in the garage - but I may put a lagering keezer out there in the future, but that is like a year in the future.

I have yet to have any pumps involved, but I was considering doing a recirculating mash tun.

I am now just thinking, I believe the 30 amp circuit is single pole and the 15 circuit is dual pole. i have to check it out tonight.

 

[Cpt_Kirks]

I use two 2000 watt heatsticks for 10 gallon batches. Even that is a little low on the power side, it takes about 25 minutes to get the 150*F mash out wort to a rolling boil.

2000 watt elements pull a little over 17 amps at 120v, so 20 amp circuits are a must. I use two separate 20 amp circuits.

A better solution would be to use a 5500 watt 240v element.

 

[CidahMastah]

So you think that one 5500 watt 240 element would do the job? The question I have is, do I have enough power running to my box, AND how hard is it to wire.

I have to look at my box and determine how much "arse" it has coming from my main panel. Then decide if I think I am savvy enough to rewire it. If my memory serves, I have a dual pole 15 amp circuit and a single pole 30 amps.

I was thinking of trying to find a stove top dial (to control the current going into the heating element). I don't like the idea of the current just coursing through without any thermostat on it. I could only find a thermostat in HD for 150F, so that won't help me getting to a 212F boil....

 

[gunner65]

A typical home has 200 amp service. Is your breaker box in the garage? Mine is and I ran a 50 amp GFCI breaker and cut the drywall just below the paned and put the 50 amp outlet on a stud below the panel then put the drywall piece back in.

A 5500w element is plenty enough for a ten gallon batch. Dry run in my system brought 8.5 gallons from 44f to boil in about 30 minutes. Took 15-20 to get to mash temp but mash to boil seemed much quicker.

As for the dial type control IDK I went with PWM first then switched to PID control.

If you are not well versed in electrical I would recommend finding a good electrician these systems can be dangerous of not properly done. I am a do it yourselfer but I also work with electricity everyday. Good luck on your build.

 

[CidahMastah]

My main panel is 200amp, and in the house. My garage is detached and I have a small box (juiced from the main panel) in the garage with a line run underground.

Sounds like 240 is a must, and based on how often I brew, well worth the cost.

The trick now is getting the my near brother in law (union) electrician, engaged to my little sister, to stop by for a visit. Trouble is he is over 200 miles away!

Please excuse my ignorance - what does PWM and PID stand for. I am not married to the dial control, was just looking for something to control the current coursing through.

 

[bruin_ale]

My main panel is 200amp, and in the house. My garage is detached and I have a small box (juiced from the main panel) in the garage with a line run underground.

Sounds like 240 is a must, and based on how often I brew, well worth the cost.

The trick now is getting the my near brother in law (union) electrician, engaged to my little sister, to stop by for a visit. Trouble is he is over 200 miles away!

Please excuse my ignorance - what does PWM and PID stand for.

PWM is Pulse Width Modulation. It's basically a circuit that controls the duty cycle of the element - ie. how long it is on vs. off.

PID is Proportional, Integral, Derivative - basically it's a unit that takes a temp sensor input and at a certain temp setting will control duty cycle of your element to avoid overshooting the temp. It sounds alot more complicated than it is - there are a million wiring diagrams in this forum for how they are connected.

 

[CidahMastah]

PWM is Pulse Width Modulation. It's basically a circuit that controls the duty cycle of the element - ie. how long it is on vs. off.

PID is Proportional, Integral, Derivative - basically it's a unit that takes a temp sensor input and at a certain temp setting will control duty cycle of your element to avoid overshooting the temp. It sounds alot more complicated than it is - there are a million wiring diagrams in this forum for how they are connected.

It sounds like what I am looking for is a PID. That would in essence act like a thermostat, what (I think) is what I want.

thanks for the info!

 

[gunner65]

http://www.auberins.com/ for PIDs and temp sensors

ebay for SSR (solid state relay)

Basically the PID send a low voltage signal to the SSR that turns one or two legs of the element off and on when heat is called for.

 

[CidahMastah]

For this application - is there a PID you recc? Looks like a lot of people like the K type probe.

Now that I am seeing all this though - it looks like the PID with temp probe would be best for the mash tun and a PWM might be better for the boil kettle. Does that sound right?

By the way thanks for the link

 

[Walker]

Now that I am seeing all this though - it looks like the PID with temp probe would be best for the mash tun and a PWM might be better for the boil kettle. Does that sound right?

Auber has a PID that has a "manual mode" of operation. It lets it behave like a PWM for boil kettle control.

If you buy that PID, you can use a selector switch to flip whether it is in control of the HLT (normal mode) or the boil kettle (manual mode), if you don't need to use them both at the same time.

 

[gunner65]

Most people prefer to use the RTD thermal sensors but the PIDs can use just about any type.

 

[CidahMastah]

Auber has a PID that has a "manual mode" of operation. It lets it behave like a PWM for boil kettle control.

If you buy that PID, you can use a selector switch to flip whether it is in control of the HLT (normal mode) or the boil kettle (manual mode), if you don't need to use them both at the same time.

Hey Walker - which PID is this one? This sounds like the way to go. So you are saying that I could set it up to monitor/maintain the mashtun temp (PID) and then flip a switch and it would serve as a PWM for the boil kettle?

I am assuming that if I wanted to get creative I could figure out how to wire up the HLT, Mashtun and kettle. Then I could use the PID to maintain the mash temp. Switch it over to the HLT to heat my sparge water in the (PID). Then after sparging I could flip it back to use it on the boil (PWM).

Does this sound reasonable?

I wouldn't be crying if I had to propane fire the HLT, as long as the mashtun and boil could use electric.

 

[Walker]

Hey Walker - which PID is this one? This sounds like the way to go. So you are saying that I could set it up to monitor/maintain the mashtun temp (PID) and then flip a switch and it would serve as a PWM for the boil kettle?

Basically, yes. You would have it in "PID mode" controlling the HLT at first. When you were ready to switch to controlling your kettle, you could switch the PID into "Manual mode" and flip a switch so that the power is directed towards the boil kettle instead of the MLT.

I am assuming that if I wanted to get creative I could figure out how to wire up the HLT, Mashtun and kettle. Then I could use the PID to maintain the mash temp. Switch it over to the HLT to heat my sparge water in the (PID). Then after sparging I could flip it back to use it on the boil (PWM).

Does this sound reasonable?

What kind of system are you building here? HERMS or RIMS?

If you are doing HERMS, then your HLT will already have the sparge water heated and ready to roll because that is what you were temp controlling during the HERMS mash.

 

[Walker]

Hey Walker - which PID is this one?

Whoops.. forgot to answer:
http://www.auberins.com/index.php?m...s_id=3&zenid=e5a861160b7555d1c21e18bad826cca5

 

[CidahMastah]

What kind of system are you building here? HERMS or RIMS?

Well originally this all started as just looking for a way to cheaply boil my wort via electric. It seems like, with all the nifty gadgets, it my grow into a much more automated set up. If you are buying the PID you might as well think about the longterm set up, and using it for all aspects of the process. The idea of monitoring the mash is especially appealing.

I remember looking at RIMS and thinking I like that better. But now I think I need to examine my scope, and keep the design in mind so my buddy (he is a welder) and I can build the proper stand. Do you prefer Herms over RIMS?

 

[Walker]

I went with a HERMS because it's possible to go 100% electric with only a single heater element and a single PID. Plus, I don't have a dedicated heating device like the RIMS tube. I converted my old copper IC into the HERMS coil, and I can still use it for chilling the wort after the boil.

 

[CidahMastah]

Cool, I like the idea of your set up. no frills on the hardware but functional. I have to check out a few picks and diagrams of the herms build, and determine what power capacity I have to push into my garage....



Crap I just realized that my garage breaker has a double pole 15 amp and a single pole 20 amp. I need to get an electrician in here to tell me how much power I have left on my main box. Otherwise it looks like might be running a little thin.

 

[bruin_ale]

take a look in your main panel, you should see a breaker for the garage sub-panel in there. My garage sub-panel was driven by a 40A double pole (240V) breaker. It was pretty easy to then install a 240V breaker in my garage sub-panel and install a dryer plug a few feet below the panel.

 

[Walker]

Crap I just realized that my garage breaker has a double pole 15 amp and a single pole 20 amp. I need to get an electrician in here to tell me how much power I have left on my main box. Otherwise it looks like might be running a little thin.

With 15A on 240V, you can drive a 3000 watt element. You should be able to boil 5 gallon batches with that.

 

[CidahMastah]

take a look in your main panel, you should see a breaker for the garage sub-panel in there. My garage sub-panel was driven by a 40A double pole (240V) breaker. It was pretty easy to then install a 240V breaker in my garage sub-panel and install a dryer plug a few feet below the panel.

It is the weirdest thing. The breaker on the main service panel to the garage is 20 amp leading out to a 20 amp breaker and a dual pole 15 amp breaker in the garage's box. So basically it is like I have two circuits in the garage, but can only draw a heavy load from one circuit at a time. At least the line out to the garage panel is 10 gauge, so I think I could improve the power heading out there.

I think this means that I would have to replace the "garage" breaker on the house service panel with something higher, say 30-50amps (but I forget what the requirement is for a 10 gauge wire). Once I do that I could replace a breaker or two in the garage with higher amp rating.

Walker, you mean if I run off one of the wall sockets I currently have on the dual pole 15 circuit I could use a 3000watt element and get a boil on a 5 gallon batch (i.e. starting boil volume of ~7 gallons?). That would certainly be the cheaper option than buying the breakers.

 

[Walker]

It is the weirdest thing. The breaker on the main service panel to the garage is 20 amp leading out to a 20 amp breaker and a dual pole 15 amp breaker in the garage's box. So basically it is like I have two circuits in the garage, but can only draw a heavy load from one circuit at a time.

That's actually common for to have things like that.

My main panel is outside of the house and contains three breakers:
- one 30A breaker for the central air sitting near the panel
- one 40A breaker for the electric range, directly through the wall from where the panel is
- one 100A breaker that feeds to the subpanel in my garage

In the subpanel is every other breaker for the house.
- ten 15A breakers for lights and receptacles in most rooms
- four 20A breakers for the receptacles in the bathrooms and kitchen
- one 30A breaker for the dryer
- one 50A breaker that I had installed for brewing

No way I could max everything from the subpanel (310A) because there is a max of 100A coming in.

At least the line out to the garage panel is 10 gauge, so I think I could improve the power heading out there.

I think this means that I would have to replace the "garage" breaker on the house service panel with something higher, say 40-50amps (but I forget what the requirement is for a 10 gauge wire). Once I do that I could replace a breaker or two in the garage with higher amp rating.

10 gauge romex wiring can handle a max of 30A.

Walker, you mean if I run off one of the wall sockets I currently have on the dual pole 15 circuit I could use a 3000watt element and get a boil on a 5 gallon batch (i.e. starting boil volume of ~7 gallons?). That would certainly be the cheaper option than buying the breakers.

Power = Voltage * Current = 240V * 15A = 3600 Watts

And you want to leave yourself some head-room, so 3000 Watts is as big as you would would want to go on that 15A breaker.

I have a friend here in NC that has a simple e-kettle with two 1500W elements in it and he has no issues brewing 5 gallons AG batches, so 3000W should be fine.

It'll take you 15-20 minutes to get your wort to a boil after sparging, but that isn't all that bad.

 

[Walker]

\That would certainly be the cheaper option than buying the breakers.

One more thing to throw out there.

Don't forget about GFI protection. I would never brew without GFI protection.

You can get a power cable that has GFI built into it, or you can swap out the breaker for a GFI one. Those breakers can get expensive, so be prepared for that and shop around. This is totally unrelated to whether you want more power in the garage... it's just a safety thing that I STRONGLY recommend.

 

[CidahMastah]

Thanks for the information Walker - it looks like my best bet might be running with 3000 watts (and what is already in the panel). I don't stand to gain a ton by putting in the 30 amp breaker due to my line restriction. I also don't deem myself confident enough o work on the service panel myself, I would hire an electrician or get my soon to be brother in law to help (union electrician).

That is interesting about your panel. Mine doesn't have a single breaker on it larger than 30amp. But it is a 200amp panel. I watched a you tube clip this morning that showed a set up like yours, larger breakers that support all the smaller ones.

The other option I would have is to put in a separate 50 amp breaker all together for brewing and run a whole new line out to an outdoor box out of the house ($$ approach). However that will take a little more convincing of the SWMBO at this point. I could easily be sneaky if I had to change breaker boxes but the minute I start digging in her flower beds to run the line.... things get complicated!

Luckily I have GFI breakers set up in the garage already. But thanks for the tip. That is my main concern with this set up, safety. I built a climbing gym in my 22x30 foot garage - structurally it is ridiculously safe and over spec (I understand structural loads). I don't understand electrical loads. No way am I working on a service panel. Just trying to understand it enough to know what i am getting into, before I let someone else do it

 

[CidahMastah]

Now the question is heat sticks, or permanent install...

 

[Walker]

I also don't deem myself confident enough o work on the service panel myself, I would hire an electrician or get my soon to be brother in law to help (union electrician).

There's more at play than confidence here. My brewery outlet is located just 2 feet from my garage sub-panel. I was 100% confident that I could install it myself, and I already had purchased the wiring, receptacle, and breaker to do the work.

Then my uber-thorough wife told me that she found a clause in our homeowner's insurance policy that stated that any damage to the house caused by electrical work that was performed by someone without an electrician's license would not be covered. Period. So, in the event that something terrible happened and my house burned down... if it was deemed to have been caused by the breaker and 2 feet of wiring that I had installed, then I would be SOL and sitting on top of 25 years of mortgage for a house that no longer existed.

That was enough for me to cough up $100 to have a licensed electrician come spent 30 minutes in my garage.

Luckily I have GFI breakers set up in the garage already. But thanks for the tip. That is my main concern with this set up, safety. I built a climbing gym in my 22x30 foot garage - structurally it is ridiculously safe and over spec (I understand structural loads). I don't understand electrical loads. No way am I working on a service panel. Just trying to understand it enough to know what i am getting into, before I let someone else do it

Good! I worry about some of the folks that rush head long into electric systems with little to no knowledge and a cavalier attitude about it. I'm glad your head is screwed on straight!

 

[Walker]

Now the question is heat sticks, or permanent install...

Well... I suggest reading this.

 

[AnOldUR]

Then my uber-thorough wife told me that she found a clause in our homeowner's insurance policy that stated that any damage to the house caused by electrical work that was performed by someone without an electrician's license would not be covered.

Damn! Too late, but better look at my policy anyway.
Wonder if you can have an electician give your work some kind of an official approval.

 

[Walker]

Wonder if you can have an electician give your work some kind of an official approval.

No idea on that.

The guy that came and did my work was ballsy, too. He installed everything without even shutting off the 100A breaker feeding the damn subpanel. I would have never done that myself.