Economics of new cars

[Zuljin]

Rent your shoes if you can. Someone said someone said that. Think about it. What are we buying? What are we going to have in the end? Check the cemetery.

So you buy a car and a house. You bought something to keep buying. Repairs. Taxes. Stop paying either and see if you own it.

 

[autobaun70]

All of my vehicles i have purchased, with the exception of my current truck, have been used. The only reason for the truck being new was that at the time it was my company required work vehicle, and had to be under 5 years old (got a nice allowance at the time). At the time, due to gas prices, late model full size used trucks were within 2-3 grand of new ones.

At this point, I have a paid for, 2008 4x4 pickup (4 Door Dodge), that mainly sits, and a 2007 Honda Accord that I drive daily. Given my fairly long commute, I can pay the car off in approximately 2 years, feed it gas/maintenance, and insure it for the price of the fuel that my truck would use.

I don't see any need to drive the truck every day. I do need it for towing my boat, doing stuff on around the family farm on occasion, I figure I can bank the $ I would put on a truck payment, hang onto it for the next 8-10 years, then replace it with another nice one.

The one major expense that most people pay out that I just cannot understand is on maintenance. I do nearly all of my own work, including rotating tires, oil changes, and have taken on more major items such as clutch replacement, engine swaps, etc. The thought of shelling out hundreds of $'s for such is just foreign to me.

 

[passedpawn]

Every single one of you would buy a new car if money wasn't a concern. Parsimony I can appreciate, envy I can't.

 

[jeffjm]

Why would I want to buy a car from some stranger across town whose only interest in me is taking my money and never seeing me again? If I knew more about cars, that might be an acceptable risk, but I don't.

If I buy a two or three year old used car from a dealer, I don't save all that much over new.

If I buy a used car older than that, I have to really start being concerned about maintenance costs and repair history.

So I buy new and drive it until it's dead, being religious about scheduled maintenance, and enjoying many years of having no car payments (during which time I can set aside money for the next new car).

 

[Zuljin]

Every single one of you would buy a new car if money wasn't a concern. Parsimony I can appreciate, envy I can't.

Here's hoping. We'll see tamale if these lizards want to move a rock out their tank or sit on it a little longer. Or just sell it to the next guy. That's what they do. I'm like them, not the only game in town.

And maybe later, once I've ragged the piss out of it for a few years, I'll sell it some well informed consumer who represents everything right with America for a steal of deal. A steal, I tell ya.

Or I'll keep it til the wheels fall off. Or until it's that cool old car you don't see much anymore.

 

[RacingRam]

I NEVER thought I would buy a new car, but I did about 15 months ago. We only have 1 car which my wife drives 98% of the time. Because I don't have a way to get to her if something happened, I wanted the most reliable car I could find. Our last car got totaled, so we had $7500 from the settlement to replace it. We looked at a ton of used cars, but most reliable stuff was $15k+ with more miles on it than I wanted (her favorite was $17,500). We knew we were going to have to finance. We ended up getting a 2011 Mitsubishi Outlander brand new for $20k. So basically my payment ended up being $100/month higher, but I feel a lot better about the reliability of the car.

 

[Devin]

I used to be in the "never buy a new car again" boat. I have purchased two new cars in my life. The first was a 2002 Dodge Ram 2500, and it was one of the biggest lemons I have ever owned. For the 2.5 years I owned it, it was in the shop (under warranty) for about 14 months. That thing sucked big. Previous to that vehicle (and since), I have also always done my own maintenance and repair work. But, with that one, since it was under warranty, I just took it in so that I wouldn't have to deal with it.

I paid that truck off in a couple of years and then shortly thereafter, I got married. My wife had never had a new vehicle, so I decided to trade that truck in on a new 2005 4Runner for my wife. We paid that off in two years, and we still have that vehicle. It has 97,000 miles on it and it has given me absolutely NO problems. I have performed all of the maintenance on it myself. Someone pointed it out earlier, but I know the EXACT history of that vehicle. That is fairly huge for someone that does their own work.

Anyway, after the 4Runner, I decided that I wasn't ever going to buy new again. I had always had fairly good luck with used vehicles. That was until recently. I purchased a 2000 Ford Crew Cab used with the "legendary" 7.3 diesel. Turned out to be one of the bigger mistakes that I made. I spent many, many weekends out in the garage wrenching on that thing. I still have it and I don't trust it as far as I can throw it. So, although I told myself that I wouldn't, I am going to buy a new truck this summer - just for the reason of knowing the history of the vehicle. That, and I am really getting sick of throwing wrenches every weekend.

There have been many who have posted in this thread something to the gist of how they get these super-cheap used cars and run the tar out them and then re-sell them for a profit. Those are the previous owners that scare me. Actually, most of the used vehicles on the highway today scare me. People that don't actually do the maintenance on the vehicles that they should. Many used cars on the road are just plain dangerous.

And all of these graphs and videos that show that your car won't be worth much in the future all depends on the type of car you get. What was the figure from the video? 20% resale in 5 years??? My 4Runner is 8 years old and it books just a touch over 50% of what I paid for it. From a reliability standpoint, that 4Runner is the best vehicle I have ever owned. So, my new truck is going to be another 'Yota.

 

[Devin]

Another thing: have you seen the prices of "slightly used" vehicles these days? They are insane. Just a few thou more in many cases gets you a vehicle with no miles and a warranty.

 

[Homercidal]

We bought a 2000 Durango years back for $11,000 used. It had 108,000. It's now got 245,000 and has pulled our camper and the family with our dogs and while it's gas mileage sucks, it's been pretty decent. Now that it's getting pretty rusty we are thinking about buying a used small car for gas mileage. However, I do want to check new prices before we buy. Friends bought a new Ford Focus because the difference in price between that and a good used car was practically nothing.

Having tools and an interest in fixing can make a car last a long time. I just happen to really like my Jeep and plan to keep it running and in decent body condition for as long as I can. This summer looks to be the summer for new rockers and maybe patch a hole in the underbody. One time after an accident with dumb old lady (turned left in front of me) I had to replace a bunch of the front end. I did the work myself and the extra money went into parts for my Mustang. That car will probably cost me more in the long run than the Jeep!

 

[kombat]

I'll never buy a brand new car again.

I bought my very first car 6 months after I graduated from university. It was a brand-new, 1999 Volkswagen Jetta. The base price was $23,000. Reasonable, right? Well, I wanted the 6-cylinder engine, instead of the standard 4-cylinder. +$1,000. I wanted alloy rims and a sunroof. +$1,000. I wanted a manual transmission, but as it was the first year for the new model, they hadn't yet figured out how to mate the manual to the VR6 engine. So I had to get an automatic transmission. +$1,000. The dealer found exactly the car we wanted in a nearby city, except it had heated seats. We could take this car (plus another $1,000 for the heated seats), or wait 6 weeks for them to ship our exact model. We took the nearby model.

For those keeping track at home, our $23,000 car had grown to $27,000 with the options. Then you add things like Scotchguard, extra charge for the "metallic paint", dealer admin charge, delivery charge, dealer prep, air conditioning tax, fuel consumption surcharge, and we're up to $29,000. Then you add provincial (8%) and federal (7%, at the time) taxes, and we're up to $32,800. We made a $1,000 down payment, then we financed the rest at 7.9% for 5 years, with the monthly payments coming out to $656/month (I'll always remember the exact number). Do the math. $656/month * 60 months = $39,360. When you consider our $1,000 down payment, that car cost me over $40,000.

For a Jetta.

And it didn't even have leather seats.

I'll never get suckered like that again.

P.S. - It was totalled in a rear-ending (not our fault) 4 years and 9 months later, before we were even finished paying for it. A 17-year old girl, texting on her cell phone, rear-ended my wife and shoved her under a school bus. We got $13,000 from the insurance company.

Think about it.

$40,000, gone from our lives. Turned into $13,000 in insurance money, which went into a used Passat. Which cost us $4,000 in repairs in one year, which we traded in towards another car, for a $6,000 credit (total spent: $17,000, credit value: $6,000. Net loss: $11,000). That car (2006 Mazda 3) now has >290,000 km on it, and is worth less than $1,000. Money you spend on cars is money lost forever. All cars are eventually worth $0.

 

[kombat]

Another thing: have you seen the prices of "slightly used" vehicles these days? They are insane. Just a few thou more in many cases gets you a vehicle with no miles and a warranty.

Right. Except when you buy new, they tack on delivery, A/C surtax, fuel surcharge, dealer prep, and probably a couple other items. Also, around here, new cars attract both provincial and federal taxes, while used cars (at least private sales) are exempt from the provincial tax and only pay the federal tax. So 2 taxes on a higher amount (because of the extra fees) instead of 1 tax on a lower price can add up to thousands of dollars difference. Then if you finance it, the difference widens further, since you're paying interest on a price that had several extra fees added to it, then was taxed twice instead of once.

Don't be fooled.

 

[TyTanium]

I just take the train.

 

[Schlimly]

I didn't see anyone mention this option so.

If you are willing to do your research and investigate the car you wish to buy. A branded title vehicle can be a good option.

I just purchased a 2012 Forester for my wife. It had less than 20k miles on it and it cost $14k. The same model with the same package was $26k. The reason the title was branded was due to a no fault accident. The accident consisted of the rear bumper being torn off by another car as it was parked. The insurance company totaled the car for a bumper.

Now I did do my research before even test driving. I got the VIN # and ran a search for the accident report and insurance report. I also had a mechanic lift it and look at the car.

When we were looking I talked to a number of dealers about their lease programs, and in the end they all turned into a negative for my situation. The mileage limit was the killer usually. You can only drive 10k miles a year with out incurring any extra cost. Living in a Rocky Mnt. state most trips on top of a daily commute would use the 10k in 6 months.

Of coarse each situation is different, but usually a little effort on your part equals greater savings.

 

[Bobby_M]

I do believe there are people that make purchase decision solely based on what they think they can afford monthly. Hell, that's why the salespeople and finance officers go after customers with that angle. Still, there are people like myself that know buying new costs a premium over a lightly used vehicle but we're willing to pay for the privilege of having something fresh, new, etc without someone else's ass smell in the seat.

Between my wife and I we've bought three new vehicles over the last 15 years and we always paid cash and always took leftover deals with several thousand in cash incentives. We don't buy anything we can't afford.

 

[Devin]

Right. Except when you buy new, they tack on delivery, A/C surtax, fuel surcharge, dealer prep, and probably a couple other items. Also, around here, new cars attract both provincial and federal taxes, while used cars (at least private sales) are exempt from the provincial tax and only pay the federal tax. So 2 taxes on a higher amount (because of the extra fees) instead of 1 tax on a lower price can add up to thousands of dollars difference. Then if you finance it, the difference widens further, since you're paying interest on a price that had several extra fees added to it, then was taxed twice instead of once.

Don't be fooled.

I'm not being "fooled". In my current research for a new 'Yota, the difference in price, after all of the crap that you mention above, is just a few thou between a brand new one and a slightly used (less than 20K miles), like I said. So much for the 20% drop in value right when you drive it off the lot (again, I think that number totally depends on what car you buy).

 

[PistolsAtDawn]

So one thing that was only lightly touched on in this thread is: totaled vehicles.

As a former loan officer, I dealt with many people who were in the unfortunate situation of having a totaled vehicle that wasn't worth nearly as much as they owed on it. But that obligation to repay exactly what they borrowed remained all the same. So the remaining balance of that loan got converted to an unsecured (and therefore higher interest rate) loan that they still had to pay off while trying to make payments on yet another vehicle. Try getting approved for the same interest rate you got on the first vehicle after this happens. Good luck with that.

The single easiest way to find yourself in this situation is to finance a new vehicle (and God forbid you make the mistake of rolling another underwater vehicle loan into the new one) and NOT buy GAP insurance. To your insurance company, your vehicle is only worth market value. They don't care what you paid for it.

So consider this scenario: you buy a new vehicle, drive it off the lot and completely wreck it on the way home. That vehicle lost a minimum of say 9% (these aren't hard figures) on the way home by virtue of having acquired its first owner and being driven. So now you have no vehicle, you're out that 9% - and possibly more - if you didn't purchase GAP insurance. Over the course of the first year, your vehicle will lose around 19% of it's value. Imagine how bad this same scenario gets if you wreck it later in the same year in which you purchased it.

But instead if you had purchased a lightly-used and reliable vehicle for a good price (not above market value), then at least your insurance is going to cover all or very-nearly all of the value of that vehicle, and you are not going to be that much out of pocket if at all.

Having totaled a car in my life (not my fault either!) I would never consider buying a new car without GAP insurance, and I likely wouldn't buy a brand new one in any case.

Would you buy stock in a company that was guaranteed to lose 19% in the first year and never recover from that loss?

It's a depreciating asset no matter what you do, so all warm and fuzzy feelings about owning a new vehicle aside, I can't see how it can ever make sense to buy new even if you buy it outright with cash.

 

[PapsD]

Right. Except when you buy new, they tack on delivery, A/C surtax, fuel surcharge, dealer prep, and probably a couple other items. Also, around here, new cars attract both provincial and federal taxes, while used cars (at least private sales) are exempt from the provincial tax and only pay the federal tax. So 2 taxes on a higher amount (because of the extra fees) instead of 1 tax on a lower price can add up to thousands of dollars difference. Then if you finance it, the difference widens further, since you're paying interest on a price that had several extra fees added to it, then was taxed twice instead of once.

Don't be fooled.

It depends where you live as far as sales tax. In Illinois you have to pay state sales tax on a vehicle based on the year and the purchase price except if the vehicle is over 15 years old or you buy the vehicle from an immediate family member. Some dealers may also charge some dealer fees on a used car sale. Plus if you finance a used car you'll still get hit with the finance fees.

After that you still have to buy or transfer the plates and transfer the title.

 

[landshark]

Yeah, guess I'm the odd duck. I buy whatever vehicle fits my whim that day (current is a BMW 535xi, was a new Dodge 2500 4x4 diesel before that, probably be an Audi A6 or VW Passet next). Drive it for 3 years, get bored of it, repeat. I can't stand seeing the same dash for 150k miles.

New vehicles don't put you in debt. Listening to some asshat friend say he wants to get married in Vegas and telling you he wants you there as his best man puts you in debt.

 

[b-boy]

I've had bad experiences with used cars and I won't go back. I buy new, and I take good care of them so I get my money's worth. I won't finance for more than 4 years, so I get about 5 payment-free years. I usually keep my cars for about 8-10 yrs, 100,000 miles, or until I experience an expensive repair - whichever comes first.

I've bought and I've leased. My latest car is a lease. I put no money down, and I'll pay $200 per month for the lease for the next 3-years. That's less than I pay to put gas in the tank every month. I also have a bumper-to-bumper warranty. That was a no-brainer.

 

[Bumbler]

Every single one of you would buy a new car if money wasn't a concern. Parsimony I can appreciate, envy I can't.

Not necessarily. I'm 45 and I've only owned 3 vehicles in my life and they've all been used. It's not because I can't afford new. It's because I'm excessively frugal. My father always said, moths flew out of my wallet whenever I opened it. I don't care if I keep up with the Jones' and I can't justify the numbers.

I think if people thought in terms of hours worked instead of $$$, their spending habits would change. $350 a month for a new truck. I can do that. Do I want to work 10 X-tra hours a month. NO! I'd rather travel, fish, brew and retire early.

 

[Beernik]

There is a point where the maintenance on an old car equals a new car payment. My wife's car reached that point in 2008. My car reached it a couple years later. I plan to pawn my car off on my daughter when she turns 16. It will be 12 years old then, about the same age the car my parents passed off to me when I started driving.

So, yeah, I can afford a mortgage and two car payments. The cars may have been bought new, but the house is 75 years old.

 

[autobaun70]

Just good for thought regarding maintenance cost in used cars. I have a theory, which I picked up from my father (been in the parts business his entire life). His theory is that most people are pretty good about oil changes, but suck at doing everything else. That said, when used car shopping, I always hunt a vehicle that is just shy of the first service interval on major items like the transmission, transfer case, and differentials. These are the items that will cost you big if neglected, so if bought before time to service them the first time, you retain control of that aspect.

Another thing I typically do, is buy a manual transmission if available. Much less to go wrong, and clutches aren't that bad to replace most of the time. If you do a lot of interstate driving shifting isn't bothersome at all. I plan to hang onto my commuter car (2007 accord coupe, 4cyl manual trans) until it hits 300k, and know that I can personally handle nearly any repair that I may face. Keep a couple if grand set aside for that and the worry factor disappears.

I'm the type that doesn't mind driving a vehicle with 200+k miles on it day to day, as long as I have another with lower miles for road trips.

 

[PapsD]

I typically drive older vehicles and do as much as I can myself. I'm a machinist/mechanic by trade and am very critical of work done by other mechanics. I never fix anything half assed and won't accept anything I payed to have fixed done half assed. I could have ****ed it up myself on the cheap!

Most used cars have little things that need fixed and maintenance almost always needs to be caught up.

Vehicle maintenance isn't that expensive if you learn to do it yourself or if you can find a local independent shop to do the work.

A good small shop also generally won't push you to get things done that aren't needed. If a vehicle is out of the warranty I would generally say it's not worth it to take it to the dealer. Unless you have some crazy luxury vehicle but there are small shops that cater to that market.

DIY oil changes generally don't save that much money but if you do your own tune ups, air filters and minor repairs it can save you big in the long run especially if you go to the dealer religiously. Plus you get the work done on your schedule not someone else's.

Most parts stores can also diagnose a check engine light for free and get you the parts to fix it.

 

[OrdinaryAvgGuy]

Rent your shoes if you can. Someone said someone said that. Think about it. What are we buying? What are we going to have in the end? Check the cemetery.

So you buy a car and a house. You bought something to keep buying. Repairs. Taxes. Stop paying either and see if you own it.

And why take a shower every day when in the end you are only going to get dirty again?

There are very few things that I would ever rent, especially if its a commonly used item such as a car or house. While a car will never build equity, a house usually does. Other items can be purchased used from a thrift store, craigslist, etc, used for several years and then sold for the same price that they were purchased for.

 

[Yooper]

Between my wife and I we've bought three new vehicles over the last 15 years and we always paid cash and always took leftover deals with several thousand in cash incentives. We don't buy anything we can't afford.

But that's rare, actually, and that was my earlier point.

Many people are in poor economic straits because they buy things they really can't afford, but want enough to convince themselves that it's a
need, and not really a want.

No one needs a new car. No one. But wanting one is ok, if you can afford it. And "$500 a month for 5 years" isn't really being able to afford it.

I think if people thought in terms of hours worked instead of $$$, their spending habits would change. $350 a month for a new truck. I can do that. Do I want to work 10 X-tra hours a month. NO! I'd rather travel, fish, brew and retire early.

I'm very frugal, and that's why I was able to retire at a young age. About 15 years ago, we made sure we lived on what we would have in retirement. We made more than what that retirement income would be, and banked it. We lived on far less than our means, and it was not all that comfortable!

But now it is. I have a house, a cottage on a lake, two decent vehicles, and rent a house in Texas on the Gulf coast for two months a year in the winter.

We have no debt at all, but we still have an "austerity program" in place for everything we want/need/but.

We buy our clothes at thrift stores- because we both feel that spending $50 for a pair of jeans isn't something we want to do. I get books from the library, and don't buy then. It's all about priorities- I'd rather spend winters kayaking in Texas now than buying a brand new car 15 years ago that I would have already forgotten about.

I don't have a smart phone, DirectTv, Netflix, etc. I don't go out to eat, or do takeout.

I think we all want it all- new vehicles, Iphones, DishNetwork, big screen TVs, big house in the 'burbs, etc. Those things are fine, but having all those now may mean not having financial security later. I go without all those things, so I can have freedom. That's my priority.

 

[kombat]

I think we all want it all- new vehicles, Iphones, DishNetwork, big screen TVs, big house in the 'burbs, etc. Those things are fine, but having all those now may mean not having financial security later. I go without all those things, so I can have freedom. That's my priority.

Or just don't have kids.

My wife and I are DINKs (Dual Income, No Kids). It's amazing how fast the money piles up when you're not paying for daycare, clothes, camps, school supplies (and nevermind college!). We *do* have cable and the "big screen TV" (aren't they ALL "big screen" TV's now? Aren't they like $400? Who cares?), but we're frugal in areas that don't matter. For example, I take the bus to work and back, my wife takes our (one) car. We cook the vast majority of our meals, but if we want to go out to a fancy restaurant, we do.

The key is to make sure you're spending less than you make. We have no debt (except for a mortgage), and thousands of dollars sitting in our bank account for emergencies, travel, and vehicle repair/replacement.

You don't have to live like a hermit to retire comfortably. Avoiding having kids buys you A LOT of leeway.

 

[wolfstar]

Buy new and drive it till it dies. I bought my Tacoma new, it is now coming up on 140,000 miles (it is an 07).

We just bought my wife a used Rav4 V6 Sport. Where we live she really needs 4WD and ground clearance that her Acura TSX could not offer.

Every case is different. When I lived in the city and had a 3 mile commute, I biked to work and we had a 15 year old beater Honda that I paid $500 for the two of us. Now that my wife and I live more than 50 miles from my client base and her job, reliable transportation is a must.

 

[cheezydemon3]

Or just don't have kids.

My wife and I are DINKs (Dual Income, No Kids). It's amazing how fast the money piles up when you're not paying for daycare, clothes, camps, school supplies (and nevermind college!). We *do* have cable and the "big screen TV" (aren't they ALL "big screen" TV's now? Aren't they like $400? Who cares?), but we're frugal in areas that don't matter. For example, I take the bus to work and back, my wife takes our (one) car. We cook the vast majority of our meals, but if we want to go out to a fancy restaurant, we do.

The key is to make sure you're spending less than you make. We have no debt (except for a mortgage), and thousands of dollars sitting in our bank account for emergencies, travel, and vehicle repair/replacement.

You don't have to live like a hermit to retire comfortably. Avoiding having kids buys you A LOT of leeway.

Yeah! But when you are old you will die alone!

I get your point, but everyone can't do that or the species dies.

Enjoy dying alone!

 

[kombat]

Yeah! But when you are old you will die alone!

Enjoy dying alone!

First of all, as I said, I'm married. So there's a better than 50% chance that I'll die first, meaning I won't be "dying alone."

Secondly, why would I be "alone" just because I don't have kids? What about, oh I don't know, OTHER OLD PEOPLE?

Thirdly, ever been to an old folks home? Plenty of those folks have children. Ask them how often they visit. Ask them if that hour or two they pop by every month are worth all the sacrifice and frustration of raising children.

I get your point, but everyone can't do that or the species dies.

Not my problem.

 

[cheezydemon3]

First of all, as I said, I'm married. So there's a better than 50% chance that I'll die first, meaning I won't be "dying alone."

Secondly, why would I be "alone" just because I don't have kids? What about, oh I don't know, OTHER OLD PEOPLE?

Thirdly, ever been to an old folks home? Plenty of those folks have children. Ask them how often they visit. Ask them if that hour or two they pop by every month are worth all the sacrifice and frustration of raising children.



Not my problem.

You were pretty damned far off topic, so you get what you get.

Economics of new cars? Don't have kids!

Congrats on your care free, money full life. All I know is that I "thought" my life had meaning before kids.

We can debate this elsewhere, but my life (short of some horrible but financially improving disaster) with my kids and probably grandkids will pale in comparison to your life full of old people and extra cash......

 

[Varmintman]

I fear this is a debate similar to the debate is homebrew cheaper than buying.

For me what has worked in my life is living debt free. I pay cash for everything that I buy and I live rather frugal even though I do not need to. My philosophy is the best investment is in yourself rather than a bank. Pay yourself into a bank account and then use that to purchase stuff like cars and such.

While I realize that many cannot afford to do so you have to look at why you cannot do so. I lived in a crappy home in a crappy neighborhood for a lot of years until I could pay cash for a nicer home out in the country. I drove crappy cars until I could pay cash for a nicer one. In short I took the long view and paid the pain up front instead of stretching it out over my entire life

 

[kombat]

My life (short of some horrible but financially improving disaster) with my kids and probably grandkids will pale in comparison to your life full of old people and extra cash......

Heh, I'm pretty sure you meant that to come across differently. I agree - a life dedicated to slaving away for unappreciative, entitled diaper-fillers DOES "pale" in comparison to a life lived for one's self instead.

But assuming you meant to say a life with kids is superior to one without, well, I guess you kind of HAVE to say that, don't you? I mean, what's the alternative? It's not like you have any other options. They're already here - you can't exactly change your mind and go back to your old life.

Besides, you can't really come out and admit you were happier without kids, can you. What if word ever got back to your kids? They'd obviously be devastated.

However, behind closed doors, I've had MANY parents candidly admit that they regret having kids, and if they could go back and do it over again, they'd choose to remain child-free. The truth is that not every kid turns out perfectly. The Beaver family was a TV show - a Hollywood myth. Kids aren't all precocious little cherubs - they get into fights at school, they cry when they don't get that new toy, they get their high school girlfriend pregnant and they call you from jail at 3 in the morning needing to be bailed out. They scratch your car, they throw parties in your house when you're not home, they rob you of a good night's sleep, they have their hand out for money, they keep you from traveling as much as you might like to otherwise, and so on and so forth.

Of course, you have a different take on it. And that's fine, that's what makes everybody different. I'm sure there are the occasional "upsides" to having kids too. There MUST be, I would think, otherwise who would put themselves through all that misery? Surely there's more to it than merely allaying one's fear of "dying alone," as you put it? Whatever those other virtues are, clearly you value them more than I do. And clearly I value the myriad aspects of a child-free life more than you do. Things like being able to sleep in, travel, and not constantly worrying about bills.

I love my wife more than anything. I want to share the rest of my life with her, and her alone. A kid would simply distract from all the fun we can have together.

 

[passedpawn]

Please stop the OT chatter. The topic is Economics of New Cars.

 

[cheezydemon3]

Heh, I'm pretty sure you meant that to come across differently. I agree - a life dedicated to slaving away for unappreciative, entitled diaper-fillers DOES "pale" in comparison to a life lived for one's self instead.

But assuming you meant to say a life with kids is superior to one without, well, I guess you kind of HAVE to say that, don't you? I mean, what's the alternative? It's not like you have any other options. They're already here - you can't exactly change your mind and go back to your old life.

Besides, you can't really come out and admit you were happier without kids, can you. What if word ever got back to your kids? They'd obviously be devastated.

However, behind closed doors, I've had MANY parents candidly admit that they regret having kids, and if they could go back and do it over again, they'd choose to remain child-free. The truth is that not every kid turns out perfectly. The Beaver family was a TV show - a Hollywood myth. Kids aren't all precocious little cherubs - they get into fights at school, they cry when they don't get that new toy, they get their high school girlfriend pregnant and they call you from jail at 3 in the morning needing to be bailed out. They scratch your car, they throw parties in your house when you're not home, they rob you of a good night's sleep, they have their hand out for money, they keep you from traveling as much as you might like to otherwise, and so on and so forth.

Of course, you have a different take on it. And that's fine, that's what makes everybody different. I'm sure there are the occasional "upsides" to having kids too. There MUST be, I would think, otherwise who would put themselves through all that misery? Surely there's more to it than allaying one's fear of "dying alone," as you put it? Whatever those other virtues are, clearly you value them more than I do. And clearly I value the myriad aspects of a child-free life more than you do. Things like being able to sleep in, travel, and not constantly worrying about bills.

I love my wife more than anything. I want to share the rest of my life with her, and her alone. A kid would simply distract from all the fun we can have together.

I was being sarcastic, but you handled it well. I said "lets debate elsewhere" and then tossed out one more point!lol.

I am now divorced and get my kids far less than I would like. I agreed to pay far MORE in child support than I legally have to, so that my kids can have all that they need.

I think that this PROVES that I in no way regret having kids.

I respect your post and even "liked" it. I honestly feel that a life with kids will have more love, more sorrow, more ups and downs, more potential for heartbreak, and less money, but will, in the end, be more full and meaningful than a life without.

That said, neither of us is right, neither is wrong.

I wish....(slippery slope here ) that more people who are obviously far less intelligent then you would decide to take your same course. good parenting is absolutely key for Kids to make life better.

*SORRY PP! MUST HAVE POSTED AT SAME TIME*

 

[MidTNJasonF]

Went nearly two decades of driving never having a car payment or new car. In fact most of my vehicles came into my possession with over 100k miles. I was fine with it and most of those vehicles were cheap to own while being fairly reliable. I will admit many of them were Honda's and Mazda's. My only problem vehicles were Ford's or Pontiac's.

With that being said I just purchased my first brand new car a little over a year and half ago. It had 23 miles on it when I took ownership and roughly 19 of those were the two test drives I put on it. I plan on keeping it for well over 100k miles and probably better than a decade. I still do not have a car payment. All those years of having no car payment got me in the habit of paying myself a car payment. I had a separate account that I put $250 a month into as a car payment for a number of years. This was in addition to any normal savings and retirement investing. When I had enough to buy what I needed I did. It was hard to write such a very large check but when the title showed up in my mail box a few days later the pain went away. Knowing the only thing I have to spend money on for about 10 years is gas, oil, tires, and car wash soap is pretty spectacular. With the new car my payments have gone up though, I am now paying myself $300 a month for the next car.

 

[SmokeNbrew]

Moral of the story is; You win some - You lose some.

We can debate financial models all day long, but what these sometimes don't represent well are the human factor. We're not machine's driven by mathematics. We're driven by emotion. (Alan Greenspan wasn't always the smartest man in the room). Futures are unpredictable and life is a game of chance. What may work for you, may not work for someone else. Don't be foolish with your money, but don't think there's a hard set of rules that governs your money either.

If a new car works for you, good. If its a used car, then good too. In either case don't buy more than you can afford, which brings up many factors, including debt. Only you can find the answer for yourself. I personally believe debt (and lack of self reliance) is this countries Achilles heel, however there's also the paradox of thrift. Spending money is sometimes a good thing.

Anyways, Im not an economics major, but my decisions and luck has ran me 50/50. Some vehicles Ive lost my ass on, some of 'em I made money on. Never bought new tho. Except for the Harley. At the time Harley's never lost value, right? That next year, the economic sky fell. The value of everything was in the ****ter and if it hadn't been for simple interest I would have been far more upside down than I was.

Since '07, Im beginning to realize for the most part that if I have to borrow money for something, then I can't afford it.

 

[RacingRam]

SmokeNBrew, you are a wise man. I wholeheartedly agree. I had a long discussion with a friend one night because he was trying to convince me I was an idiot for overpaying my taxes every year so I get a refund. I know that financially I'd be better off putting that money into savings, but I'm human and I'd rather get a small windfall than have to take money out of savings to pay my tax bill. Check out "prospect theory" for why we all do stuff like that.

 

[SmokeNbrew]

SmokeNBrew, you are a wise man. I wholeheartedly agree. I had a long discussion with a friend one night because he was trying to convince me I was an idiot for overpaying my taxes every year so I get a refund. I know that financially I'd be better off putting that money into savings, but I'm human and I'd rather get a small windfall than have to take money out of savings to pay my tax bill. Check out "prospect theory" for why we all do stuff like that.

I appreciate the kind words and you bring up an EXCELLENT point with prospect theory...if humans behaved in strict logical sense, then the lottery would cease to exist and frankly 'ol Bernie Madoff wouldn't have made off with Billions. Hell, country music wouldn't have had anything to write about either.

But thats just the way life is.

I don't feel all this is getting off topic. It directly addresses the root of the OP's question. In the end some people subscribe to rules. Some dont. Even Einstein didn't always like the outcome of his own work. He wanted a universe that didn't expand or contract...he wanted a constant. So to fix that he added rules that mathematically balanced energy density and radiation to show the universe stayed the same indefinitely. (jezus, this is a beer forum...Im sounding like a twat...homebrewtalk needs a breathalyzer as part of their login )

My point is, we now know these hard set of rules aren't exactly true because of what we're currently seeing with Hubble. The universe is expanding. So we'll explain this phenomenon yet again with more rules and theories. I can say we've come a long way since the first 'rules' the church set, being the world is flat.

I'll get off my soap box. haha. If anything is gained from the time people may spend reading this, is I hope it's knowing they shouldnt give two sh!ts about what someone else is doing. Do what's good for them. Think for themselves.

 

[Devin]

I think that it is funny that so many people say "if you have to borrow to buy it, you can't afford it". Yet the majority of those people have a mortgage. I personally hate debt, but there is some that I can't avoid. I currently only have the house payment. I guess that since I couldn't buy my house with cash, that means that I can't "afford" it.

 

[PistolsAtDawn]

I think that it is funny that so many people say "if you have to borrow to buy it, you can't afford it". Yet the majority of those people have a mortgage. I personally hate debt, but there is some that I can't avoid. I currently only have the house payment. I guess that since I couldn't buy my house with cash, that means that I can't "afford" it.

The really sad and telling thing there is that it's true that if you have to borrow, you can't afford it. My ~$122k house will wind up costing me over a hundred thousand dollars more just in interest alone. So no, I actually can't afford it. But what choice do 99% of us have if we want to "own" and not rent (so long as a creditor can legally take your property from you, I contest the "ownership" bit of a house). I'll probably sell the property in the near(ish) future.

A car basically works the same way, but you aren't paying compounding interest for 30 years, so it's far more within the reach of the average person.

Not to steer the conversation in this direction: but this is the perfect example of the upper class rigging the system so that they stay rich and we stay poor.