Easy Stovetop All-Grain Brewing (with pics)

[ThickHead]

Okay. Let's say your stovetop brewing. Do you always keep the top of the pot off so that you can stir and look at the thermometer?

Using BeerSmith to calculate my strike-water temperature I typically hit my mash temperature right on the money (or within a degree or two either direction). I put the lid on and it (never stirring again) until my 60-90 minute mash is complete without a single degree of temp lost. I would assume that if you leave the lid off (continuously stirring your mash) that you will more than likely lose temperature during your mash. If this is the case you will want to pay close attention to your thermometer and manage the mash temp (turning your burner on and off) appropriately.

 

[Justibone]

Okay. Let's say your stovetop brewing. Do you always keep the top of the pot off so that you can stir and look at the thermometer?

You could, though that would take more attention, and obviously, more heat.

Recently I've tried covering and wrapping in a towel, and removing from the heat. I get about 10F loss per hour, so that's not good. I'm going to try a thicker towel next time.

I've heard of other people putting the whole pot in the oven to keep it warm. That could work if you were certain your pot handles wouldn't be damaged.

If you did leave the top off, and stir constantly, it would be a constant battle to hold a given temperature. I'd say it would work, but it wouldn't be easy or precise, IMO.

It would work, though!

(You should *always* remove the pot-lid during the boil, though.)

 

[agenthucky]

You could, though that would take more attention, and obviously, more heat.

Recently I've tried covering and wrapping in a towel, and removing from the heat. I get about 10F loss per hour, so that's not good. I'm going to try a thicker towel next time.

I've heard of other people putting the whole pot in the oven to keep it warm. That could work if you were certain your pot handles wouldn't be damaged.

If you did leave the top off, and stir constantly, it would be a constant battle to hold a given temperature. I'd say it would work, but it wouldn't be easy or precise, IMO.

It would work, though!

(You should *always* remove the pot-lid during the boil, though.)

When you put it in the oven, the oven should be at like 170F/180F for the lowest setting on the stove. This shouldn't damage any normal pot handles because the kettle can get that hot on the stove.

 

[borden]

When you put it in the oven, the oven should be at like 170F/180F for the lowest setting on the stove. This shouldn't damage any normal pot handles because the kettle can get that hot on the stove.

I've put my 5 gallon stainless pot in the oven for mashing as high as 200F, with the oven door open until it drops to 150 or so. Not that I'm advising 200 degrees, but sometimes I forget to turn the oven off and overheat it a bit. In any case, so far, so good --this method of keeping the mash at temperature has worked like a charm for me. I did an 80 minute mash the other day that started at 156F and ended at 155. I'll take that!

 

[natewv]

So for my first all grain I want to make Yooper's Stone Ruination clone with the following ingredients:

14 lbs Pale Malt (2 Row) US (2.0 SRM) Grain 93.33 %
1 lbs Caramel/Crystal Malt - 20L (20.0 SRM) Grain 6.67 %

I do not have a mash tun, but I do have a 15 gallon, 6 gallon, and 2 x 3 gallon pots, a turkey fryer, and a big old grain bag. Can I mash this BIAB/stovetop style, and if so how, and what pots do I use for what?

 

[copyright1997]

So for my first all grain I want to make Yooper's Stone Ruination clone with the following ingredients:

14 lbs Pale Malt (2 Row) US (2.0 SRM) Grain 93.33 %
1 lbs Caramel/Crystal Malt - 20L (20.0 SRM) Grain 6.67 %

I do not have a mash tun, but I do have a 15 gallon, 6 gallon, and 2 x 3 gallon pots, a turkey fryer, and a big old grain bag. Can I mash this BIAB/stovetop style, and if so how, and what pots do I use for what?

Plugging the grains into BeerSmith tells me that you will need about 4.7 gallons of water for the mash plus the space required by the 15 pounds of grains, and it says 5.86 for the total mash volume (which will be tight in the 6 gallon container). For the batch sparge step, you will need 3.16 additional gallons (plus the grains), so the 3 gallon pots won't do but you could use the 15 gallon one.

If it were me, my bigger concern would be the weight of the grains bag. You have 15 pounds of grains, beer smith estimates grain absorption at 1.8 gallons (= another 15-16 pounds OR MORE since the mash water is slow to come out of the bag), which you get to lift from the 152 degree mash and from the 170 degree sparge. I am also trying to stick a colander UNDER the bag that I have pulled up and holding above my shoulder height with one hand. To me, this is the hardest part of this method and I managed to drop the bag into the hot sparge liquid once....all over myself and the kitchen (ceiling, walls, wood floors, refrigerator, ...)

 

[Justibone]

When you put it in the oven, the oven should be at like 170F/180F for the lowest setting on the stove. This shouldn't damage any normal pot handles because the kettle can get that hot on the stove.

It made the handles on my pot kinda soft and malleable. They are either plastic or silicone... It didn't damage them but it had me worried for a bit.

 

[Justibone]

So for my first all grain I want to make Yooper's Stone Ruination clone with the following ingredients:

I agree with Copy, this is going to be tough to do. I recommend using some extract for this one, and only doing a partial (maybe half?) mash.

 

[natewv]

Plugging the grains into BeerSmith tells me that you will need about 4.7 gallons of water for the mash plus the space required by the 15 pounds of grains, and it says 5.86 for the total mash volume (which will be tight in the 6 gallon container). For the batch sparge step, you will need 3.16 additional gallons (plus the grains), so the 3 gallon pots won't do but you could use the 15 gallon one.

If it were me, my bigger concern would be the weight of the grains bag. You have 15 pounds of grains, beer smith estimates grain absorption at 1.8 gallons (= another 15-16 pounds OR MORE since the mash water is slow to come out of the bag), which you get to lift from the 152 degree mash and from the 170 degree sparge. I am also trying to stick a colander UNDER the bag that I have pulled up and holding above my shoulder height with one hand. To me, this is the hardest part of this method and I managed to drop the bag into the hot sparge liquid once....all over myself and the kitchen (ceiling, walls, wood floors, refrigerator, ...)

The 15 gallon one came with a huge strainer too, so I am not as worried about holding the grain bag since it will be in the strainer, plus I won't know how hard it is until I try, so why not, ha! I'm asking this in another thread...but I'm really at a loss about how to determine all the water stuff. I'm trying to use brewtarget because I am cheap.

These replies are helpful so I'm sorry to reiterate my question (I'm dumb plus this will be my first AG) but precisely what pots will I be using for what? I have no clue about water quantites (or really temps, lol) so I'll use yours and the recipe's. I hope I am not jacking the wrong thread, but hopefully you can check out my assumed process and help me figure my sh*t out.

*I heat 4.7 gallons of water to 166 (so I mash at 152?) in the 15 gallon pot. Maybe keep the lid on and insulate with a sleeping bag. (is that 5.8 gallons what your tool calculates to be the 'space' taken up by the strike water and the grains)?
I do not see a mash time so I ASSUME an hour?

*Heat up 3.2 gallons of sparge water to 170 in the 6 gallon pot.
EDIT: Wait, I thought you needed more sparge water per pound of grain vs less?
Drain grains for a couple of minutes, transfer them to the sparge pot, let sit for 10 minutes, drain again, discard grains.

*Transfer sparge wort to original wort pot and add any addition water to achieve (i'm guessing here) 6.25 gallons. Move on with my boil and hop schedule. When I need to cool, I may have to transfer the wort to the smaller pot...since my new big pot won't fit in the big bucket I have for the ice I use in addition to my wort chiller...is that OK?

 

[Justibone]

A 60 minute mash is usually sufficient, and with your quantity of 2-row, I can't imagine it wouldn't be. The only way to be sure, though, is an iodine test (google it).

A 90 minute mash is also a possibility.

 

[ThickHead]

A 90 minute mash is also a possibility.

I have moved to a 90 min mash on all my ales using this method. Not always needed but the extra mash time doesn't hurt a thing. For whatever reason I don't seem to get the efficiency (level and consistency) I am looking for with a 60 min mash. With the equipment I use 90 min seems to be the sweet-spot for me.

 

[copyright1997]

The 15 gallon one came with a huge strainer too, so I am not as worried about holding the grain bag since it will be in the strainer, plus I won't know how hard it is until I try, so why not, ha! I'm asking this in another thread...but I'm really at a loss about how to determine all the water stuff. I'm trying to use brewtarget because I am cheap.

These replies are helpful so I'm sorry to reiterate my question (I'm dumb plus this will be my first AG) but precisely what pots will I be using for what? I have no clue about water quantites (or really temps, lol) so I'll use yours and the recipe's. I hope I am not jacking the wrong thread, but hopefully you can check out my assumed process and help me figure my sh*t out.

*I heat 4.7 gallons of water to 166 (so I mash at 152?) in the 15 gallon pot. Maybe keep the lid on and insulate with a sleeping bag. (is that 5.8 gallons what your tool calculates to be the 'space' taken up by the strike water and the grains)?
I do not see a mash time so I ASSUME an hour?

*Heat up 3.2 gallons of sparge water to 170 in the 6 gallon pot.
EDIT: Wait, I thought you needed more sparge water per pound of grain vs less?
Drain grains for a couple of minutes, transfer them to the sparge pot, let sit for 10 minutes, drain again, discard grains.

*Transfer sparge wort to original wort pot and add any addition water to achieve (i'm guessing here) 6.25 gallons. Move on with my boil and hop schedule. When I need to cool, I may have to transfer the wort to the smaller pot...since my new big pot won't fit in the big bucket I have for the ice I use in addition to my wort chiller...is that OK?

Use the 6 gallon (hope it fits!) for the mash as you want to minmize heat loss due to the 60 minute mash, so the least amount of empty space the better. If you used the 15 gallon pot, you would have more heat loss over the 60 minutes due to more empty head space. Use the 15 gallon pot for the sparge as it will only be there 15 minutes and then you add into that the mash liquid. If you have to move to the smaller pot post boil you can do so as the post boil volume should be < 6 gallons (see below). However, if you have a chiller why do you need to use an ice bath?

Water Volumes:
We really want to work backwards from the batch size, with the exception of how much water you need for the mash.

Mash-in volume: How much you will have at the beginning of the mash
Grain Absorption: How much of that gets absorbed into the grains
Water Available from Mash: How much after the mash is done = Mash in volume - Grain Absorbtion.
Sparge Volume: How much to use for the batch sparge
Pre-Boil Volume: How much volume after the sparge = Mash in volume - Grain Absorption + Sparge Volume.
Next, you will do your boil. During the boil you will lose volume to do evaporation, how much depends on your equipment. For my setup, Beersmith estimates I will lose 8.3% per hour.
So, Pre boil volume - Boil Off ---> Post Boil Volume
Next, you will lose some to colling loss. BeerSmith estimates that at 4%. You also need to add in Trub Loss, i.e. the volume of wort lost due to your mash tun and when you transfer to your primary. Since you are using BIAB, you have no mash tun loss. For myself, I just set this at .25 gallons because I usually dump all of the wort into the primary.
Finally, if you are doing a starter, you can ADD the starter volume, and in some cases you would also estimate a Bottling/Fermentation loss. I usually just have these at zero.
If you are doing a top-up (e.g. adding ICE or water post boil), you would add this volume in.

Overall, it looks like this:
Mash_in - Absorption + Sparge - Evaporate - Cooling - Trub + top_up = 5.0 gallons.

A good rule of thumb is 1.25 Qts H20 or more per # of grains for the mash. BeerSmith (well worth the 21 $ or so) defaults to 1.3 qt/lb for a single infusion, medium body mash in. So, for your grain bill it is 18.87 quarts of water.

Results:
Mash in = 5.86 gallons
Grain Absorption = 1.8 gallons
Water Available from Mash = 5.86 - 1.8 = 2.89 gallons
Tun DeadSpace = 0 gallons
Sparge Volume = 3.16 gallons
Pre-Boil Volume = 6.04 gallons
Boil Off = 0.58 gallons (8.3%/hour for 70 minutes - I usually estimate it with a little longer boil due to my slow to go electric stove)
Post-Boil Volume = 5.46 gallons
Cooling Loss = .22 gallons
Trub Loss = .25 gallons
Top-up = 0 gallons
Starter Size = 0 gallons
Bottling/Fermentation Loss = 0 gallons
Yields Batch size = 5 gallons

Before I had an immersion chiller, I used sterilized ice in a sanitzed container. In that case you plug in a top-up (e.g. .5 or 1.0 gallons), and magic happens and the other numbers are adjusted. (Except I also had to go and play with hops as they produce lower IBU's with less volume in boil.)

Does this help?

 

[natewv]

Use the 6 gallon (hope it fits!) for the mash as you want to minmize heat loss due to the 60 minute mash, so the least amount of empty space the better. If you used the 15 gallon pot, you would have more heat loss over the 60 minutes due to more empty head space. Use the 15 gallon pot for the sparge as it will only be there 15 minutes and then you add into that the mash liquid. If you have to move to the smaller pot post boil you can do so as the post boil volume should be < 6 gallons (see below). However, if you have a chiller why do you need to use an ice bath?

Water Volumes:
We really want to work backwards from the batch size, with the exception of how much water you need for the mash.

Mash-in volume: How much you will have at the beginning of the mash
Grain Absorption: How much of that gets absorbed into the grains
Water Available from Mash: How much after the mash is done = Mash in volume - Grain Absorbtion.
Sparge Volume: How much to use for the batch sparge
Pre-Boil Volume: How much volume after the sparge = Mash in volume - Grain Absorption + Sparge Volume.
Next, you will do your boil. During the boil you will lose volume to do evaporation, how much depends on your equipment. For my setup, Beersmith estimates I will lose 8.3% per hour.
So, Pre boil volume - Boil Off ---> Post Boil Volume
Next, you will lose some to colling loss. BeerSmith estimates that at 4%. You also need to add in Trub Loss, i.e. the volume of wort lost due to your mash tun and when you transfer to your primary. Since you are using BIAB, you have no mash tun loss. For myself, I just set this at .25 gallons because I usually dump all of the wort into the primary.
Finally, if you are doing a starter, you can ADD the starter volume, and in some cases you would also estimate a Bottling/Fermentation loss. I usually just have these at zero.
If you are doing a top-up (e.g. adding ICE or water post boil), you would add this volume in.

Overall, it looks like this:
Mash_in - Absorption + Sparge - Evaporate - Cooling - Trub + top_up = 5.0 gallons.

A good rule of thumb is 1.25 Qts H20 or more per # of grains for the mash. BeerSmith (well worth the 21 $ or so) defaults to 1.3 qt/lb for a single infusion, medium body mash in. So, for your grain bill it is 18.87 quarts of water.

Results:
Mash in = 5.86 gallons
Grain Absorption = 1.8 gallons
Water Available from Mash = 5.86 - 1.8 = 2.89 gallons
Tun DeadSpace = 0 gallons
Sparge Volume = 3.16 gallons
Pre-Boil Volume = 6.04 gallons
Boil Off = 0.58 gallons (8.3%/hour for 70 minutes - I usually estimate it with a little longer boil due to my slow to go electric stove)
Post-Boil Volume = 5.46 gallons
Cooling Loss = .22 gallons
Trub Loss = .25 gallons
Top-up = 0 gallons
Starter Size = 0 gallons
Bottling/Fermentation Loss = 0 gallons
Yields Batch size = 5 gallons

Before I had an immersion chiller, I used sterilized ice in a sanitzed container. In that case you plug in a top-up (e.g. .5 or 1.0 gallons), and magic happens and the other numbers are adjusted. (Except I also had to go and play with hops as they produce lower IBU's with less volume in boil.)

Does this help?

awesome. before I try to understand this...

1) is beersmith ($17 on sale at the moment...****in A I am about to go over to the LHBS and spend $90) lightyears better than brewtarget (free)?

2) It's a regular turkey fryer pot so 30 qt/7.5 gals, so hopefully that makes either the mash or sparge easier/less of a space worry...right?

3) at the moment I am less concerned about exact volumes versus actual process and equipment use...is my process right?

4) This spot in Columbia MD is great I just had a Breckenridge agave wheat, , Rogue Maierfest Lager, and finishing with a Racer 5. Hopefully I decide to leave after this beer.

EDIT 5) I have an IC, it just took like an hour to get the temp down last time, and I have an ice maker so I figure why not do both?

 

[copyright1997]

awesome. before I try to understand this...

1) is beersmith ($17 on sale at the moment...****in A I am about to go over to the LHBS and spend $90) lightyears better than brewtarget (free)?

2) It's a regular turkey fryer pot so 30 qt/7.5 gals, so hopefully that makes either the mash or sparge easier/less of a space worry...right?

3) at the moment I am less concerned about exact volumes versus actual process and equipment use...is my process right?

4) This spot in Columbia MD is great I just had a Breckenridge agave wheat, , Rogue Maierfest Lager, and finishing with a Racer 5. Hopefully I decide to leave after this beer.

EDIT 5) I have an IC, it just took like an hour to get the temp down last time, and I have an ice maker so I figure why not do both?

1) Can't answer, never used brewtarget. BeerSmith sometimes drives me crazy buy well worth $17.
2) Yep.
3) Assuming this is your process:
*I heat 4.7 gallons of water to 166 (so I mash at 152?) in the 15 gallon pot. Maybe keep the lid on and insulate with a sleeping bag. (is that 5.8 gallons what your tool calculates to be the 'space' taken up by the strike water and the grains)?
I do not see a mash time so I ASSUME an hour?

*Heat up 3.2 gallons of sparge water to 170 in the 6 gallon pot.
EDIT: Wait, I thought you needed more sparge water per pound of grain vs less?
Drain grains for a couple of minutes, transfer them to the sparge pot, let sit for 10 minutes, drain again, discard grains.

*Transfer sparge wort to original wort pot and add any addition water to achieve (i'm guessing here) 6.25 gallons. Move on with my boil and hop schedule. When I need to cool, I may have to transfer the wort to the smaller pot...since my new big pot won't fit in the big bucket I have for the ice I use in addition to my wort chiller...is that OK?

then
1) Use the 6 gal or 7.5 gal turkey fryer for the mash. If the 6 gal fits, use it as there will be less air space. Leave it covered during the mash. The mash in temp (before adding the grains which will cool it down) depends on the equipment, for mine I do 165 to get to around 152 for mash.
2) Use remaining water (as per calc) to get to sparge volume, and use the other big pot for it. I'd say any of the three (6 gal, turkey fryer, 15 gal) will do. I usually heat to 185 as you will be transfering the wet grain bag which is about 152 degrees or (or lower as you let it drained for a couple of minutes) to your sparge pot. Sparge for 10-15 minutes. Drain your grains into your sparge.
3) I usually take SG readings of the mash and the sparge lioquids. Do the mash while you are letting the grains to their 10-15 sparge. Do the sparge reading after you drain the grains. Why? Mostly for future purposes, I am thinking of trying (at some point) to do a first runnings and second runnings dual batch.
4) Combine the sparge and mash liquids into whatever pot you want to boil in. No need to add any liquids here. Do a SG reading here so you know what your pre-boil SG is.
5) Do your normal boil, chill stuff. Take a santized SG reading prior to pitching yeast.

For all SG readings, MAKE SURE you adjust for temperature. There are online calculators like this one that you can use.

4) Been thinking of doing a Racer 5 clone. Hmm.

5) You can do both...but my cheapo IC gets me to ale pitch temperature (67-68 degrees) in about 15 minutes. (It helps that my well water temp is under 60.)

 

[Justibone]

If your IC is too slow, you can build a pre-chiller with parts from Home Depot or Lowes, and run it through an igloo cooler of ice water before the running it into your IC.

 

[tennesseean_87]

I am planning a round of brews using this method at 2.75 gallons each. I like the size--it will be easy on the stove-top, let me have some variety, and minimize losses if something doesn't work out. Hopefully the 1/4 gallon will help with trub loss. I scaled down a bunch of AG recipes in the BrewBuilder at BMW, and plan on harvesting/pitching on yeast cakes for maximum savings. If efficiency and trub loss aren't problems, I should be getting four cases of beer for about $13 each because gas for the stove is included in rent!

 

[natewv]

then
1) Use the 6 gal or 7.5 gal turkey fryer for the mash. If the 6 gal fits, use it as there will be less air space. Leave it covered during the mash. The mash in temp (before adding the grains which will cool it down) depends on the equipment, for mine I do 165 to get to around 152 for mash.
2) Use remaining water (as per calc) to get to sparge volume, and use the other big pot for it. I'd say any of the three (6 gal, turkey fryer, 15 gal) will do. I usually heat to 185 as you will be transfering the wet grain bag which is about 152 degrees or (or lower as you let it drained for a couple of minutes) to your sparge pot. Sparge for 10-15 minutes. Drain your grains into your sparge.
3) I usually take SG readings of the mash and the sparge lioquids. Do the mash while you are letting the grains to their 10-15 sparge. Do the sparge reading after you drain the grains. Why? Mostly for future purposes, I am thinking of trying (at some point) to do a first runnings and second runnings dual batch.
4) Combine the sparge and mash liquids into whatever pot you want to boil in. No need to add any liquids here. Do a SG reading here so you know what your pre-boil SG is.
5) Do your normal boil, chill stuff. Take a santized SG reading prior to pitching yeast.

For all SG readings, MAKE SURE you adjust for temperature. There are online calculators like this one that you can use.

4) Been thinking of doing a Racer 5 clone. Hmm.

5) You can do both...but my cheapo IC gets me to ale pitch temperature (67-68 degrees) in about 15 minutes. (It helps that my well water temp is under 60.)

Ok, I made my starter last night and the wife and kids are heading to WV to see my days old neice, plus it is going to be some nasty weather so what better time than the present to do this?

You mentioned 1st and 2nd runnings...

1A how is there such a thing in a BIAB process?

1B what about things like vorlaufing or (in a regular mash tun) waiting until the runnings are clear before letting it go into the boil pot. Are those not a concern with BIAB?

2 When I come up with all these numbers and hopefully get accurate gravities, how will I be able to use this data to troubleshoot all these estimates I came up with regarding things like heat or boil losses and brewhouse efficiency and so on?

3) I had antoher question about why people usually have multiple levels (height wise) of mash water heater, mash tun, and boil pot, but I think they are moot in this discussion

 

[tennesseean_87]

Considering that I plan on pitching on top of a yeast cake a time or two, I was wondering if this would compound the trub problem that others have spoken of. Would washing the yeast, cleaning the fermenter, and re-pitching be better?

 

[copyright1997]

You mentioned 1st and 2nd runnings...

1A how is there such a thing in a BIAB process?

1B what about things like vorlaufing or (in a regular mash tun) waiting until the runnings are clear before letting it go into the boil pot. Are those not a concern with BIAB?

2 When I come up with all these numbers and hopefully get accurate gravities, how will I be able to use this data to troubleshoot all these estimates I came up with regarding things like heat or boil losses and brewhouse efficiency and so on?

3) I had antoher question about why people usually have multiple levels (height wise) of mash water heater, mash tun, and boil pot, but I think they are moot in this discussion

1a) Why not? I haven't done it yet but it is essentially the same process. The liquid from the mash is the first runnings, the liquid from the batch sparge is the second runnings. However, nothing keeps you from doing other things like doing partial mixes. Here's a great spreadsheet that helps with the calculations: http://braukaiser.com/download/batch_sparge_simulator.xls
2) With SW like BeerSmith, you plug in the actuals (e.g. Pre-boil SG, volume, post-boil SG, volume) and it tells you your actual efficiency, etc for the batch. For some of the things (like boil-off), you have to measure...and then you will know for future batches. (For example, it might be something like "I lost x.y gallons during boil off over 60 minutes so my loss rate is % percent".) Or, you might just say that the defaults provided by the SW based on already existing equipment profiles is "good enough".
3) I don't use this. They do it so that they can use gravity to get liquids from one thing (e.g. mash) to another (e.g. boil pot).

 

[copyright1997]

Considering that I plan on pitching on top of a yeast cake a time or two, I was wondering if this would compound the trub problem that others have spoken of. Would washing the yeast, cleaning the fermenter, and re-pitching be better?

I've done it to try it. Didn't perceive any issues but many folks warn about over-pitching.

I've also captured the yeast and placed it into a STERILIZED mason jars using sterilized or sanitized utensils. Then, you can use these for the re-use.

For either of the above, I've always gone from a "lighter" batch to a "heavier" batch, never the other was.

Washing the yeast is supposed to be better. To this point, I've been too lazy to do so.

The ultimate is to create and use yeast slants. Here's a couple of links, I would like to try this someday. https://www.homebrewtalk.com/wiki/index.php/Yeast_Slants and http://www.antiochsudsuckers.com/tom/YeastSlants.htm

 

[tennesseean_87]

For either of the above, I've always gone from a "lighter" batch to a "heavier" batch, never the other was [sic].

I'm planning to go from lighter to both heavier and darker. Anyone else have experience re: trub with pitching on a yeast cake? Also, how many times can you do this? I think I have heard 3 beers on the same yeast. Is four too many? If so, I'll probably just gather some least in sterilized containers for the last batch or two.

 

[Justibone]

1A how is there such a thing in a BIAB process?

The other poster had it right. The mash liquid is the first runnings, and the sparge is the second runnings equivalent. In traditional breweries, the first run is used to make a premium beer, and second runnings makes a lower-alcohol, more economical-type beer.

1B what about things like vorlaufing or (in a regular mash tun) waiting until the runnings are clear before letting it go into the boil pot. Are those not a concern with BIAB?

Sadly, this is impossible with BIAB. I think that's a large part of why we have so much more trub than traditional mash-lauter tuns.

2 When I come up with all these numbers and hopefully get accurate gravities, how will I be able to use this data to troubleshoot all these estimates I came up with regarding things like heat or boil losses and brewhouse efficiency and so on?

The calculations are not that hard to do. If you know where to put which measurement, the computer program will do it for you. It's easier if you can measure the gravity hot with a whatchamacalit (I have one, but can never remember the name... doggone it!). It uses refraction of light to measure how much sugar is in the wort, with pure water being a 1.00, and then it measures in degrees Plato (which can be converted to specific gravity).

You can also measure OG in warm wort with a hydrometer:
http://www.howtobrew.com/appendices/appendixA.html

It's really just a case of whether or not you take the measurements or whether you just guess by working backwards from the gravity you actually put in the fermenter.

3) I had antoher question about why people usually have multiple levels (height wise) of mash water heater, mash tun, and boil pot, but I think they are moot in this discussion

Yes, moot. That's just to safely and quickly drain water/wort from one vessel to another using gravity. The usual set-up is:


- - - - - - - - - - - - - - Hot Liquor Tank (water)
- - - - - - - - Mash Kettle
- - - Boil Kettle

There is usually a spot to move the burner from pot to pot, as needed. Towards the end of the mash, for instance, you would want to heat the hot liquor tank up to sparge temps, but when it is time to boil you can move the burner down to underneath that kettle, etc.

Other people use food-safe high-temp pumps to do the same thing.

 

[natewv]

Ok so I did my first 2 AG batches this weekend doing BIAB with a 7.5 G mash pot and a 15 G sparge pot and boiling in the mash pot. Both batches ended up with over a gallon of extra wort preboil. Both post-boil/post-cooling gravities came out pretty close.

1) I boiled them each for almost 30-45 minutes prior to starting the hop schedule. I'm hoping that did not eff anything up?

2) How in hell am I getting so much extra wort? I'm mashing for the correct time, and my grist seems to have plenty of room to move around.

3) I took a bunch of temp and hydro readings, everyone here talks about achieving so and so efficiency, and I just guessed at 70% for these in the software I used, but what can I do now to calculate efficiency (or some other 'brewhouse' or equipment variable) and possibly use less strike and sparge water or something, as well as not have to boil for so long?

The numbers my program came up with were the same that copyright1997 came up with.

 

[copyright1997]

Ok so I did my first 2 AG batches this weekend doing BIAB with a 7.5 G mash pot and a 15 G sparge pot and boiling in the mash pot. Both batches ended up with over a gallon of extra wort preboil. Both post-boil/post-cooling gravities came out pretty close.

1) I boiled them each for almost 30-45 minutes prior to starting the hop schedule. I'm hoping that did not eff anything up?

2) How in hell am I getting so much extra wort? I'm mashing for the correct time, and my grist seems to have plenty of room to move around.

3) I took a bunch of temp and hydro readings, everyone here talks about achieving so and so efficiency, and I just guessed at 70% for these in the software I used, but what can I do now to calculate efficiency (or some other 'brewhouse' or equipment variable) and possibly use less strike and sparge water or something, as well as not have to boil for so long?

The numbers my program came up with were the same that copyright1997 came up with.

Was the grain crushed?
Please post the recipe with expected values as well as what you measured.
Was your post-boil volume off? (I rarely measure mine.)

 

[Justibone]

If you calculated too much water absorption by the grain, that could be a reason for extra volume. Another reason is inaccurate volume measurements between vessels.

 

[RM-MN]

Ok so I did my first 2 AG batches this weekend doing BIAB with a 7.5 G mash pot and a 15 G sparge pot and boiling in the mash pot. Both batches ended up with over a gallon of extra wort preboil. Both post-boil/post-cooling gravities came out pretty close.

1) I boiled them each for almost 30-45 minutes prior to starting the hop schedule. I'm hoping that did not eff anything up?

2) How in hell am I getting so much extra wort? I'm mashing for the correct time, and my grist seems to have plenty of room to move around.

3) I took a bunch of temp and hydro readings, everyone here talks about achieving so and so efficiency, and I just guessed at 70% for these in the software I used, but what can I do now to calculate efficiency (or some other 'brewhouse' or equipment variable) and possibly use less strike and sparge water or something, as well as not have to boil for so long?

The numbers my program came up with were the same that copyright1997 came up with.

Extra boiling won't hurt a thing. The time in the boil that you need to be concerned with is after you add the hops. Hops need a certain amount of boil to get the bitterness you intend.

Did you squeeze all the wort out of the mash in the bag leaving the grain quite dry? That would account for a lot of the extra water. Typically a mash tun is drained by gravity leaving quite a bit of water (wort) in the grain. (grain absorption)

 

[natewv]

Was the grain crushed?
Please post the recipe with expected values as well as what you measured.
Was your post-boil volume off? (I rarely measure mine.)

Yea of course it was crushed...at my LHBS when I got my ingredients over the weekend. My post boil volume...well no I think it was on...that was the whole point of my extra long boil to get it close. On both batches I had over 7 gallons of pre-boil volume, so I let it boil down to about 6 then started my hour hops schedule so with evaporation it got just about right. This is great and all, but I feel I'm missing something somewhere, plus it adds 45 min-1 hour to my brew time and 7 gallons boils over way faster than 6.

If you calculated too much water absorption by the grain, that could be a reason for extra volume. Another reason is inaccurate volume measurements between vessels.

Yes I think it's qute obvious that I calculated too much water absorption, and this is what I'm trying to get help with. I didn't calculate it, so to speak, everything tells me to use 1.25 qts. How do you calculate it? What rules of thumb or advice do people have for me to get it better?

Extra boiling won't hurt a thing. The time in the boil that you need to be concerned with is after you add the hops. Hops need a certain amount of boil to get the bitterness you intend.

Did you squeeze all the wort out of the mash in the bag leaving the grain quite dry? That would account for a lot of the extra water. Typically a mash tun is drained by gravity leaving quite a bit of water (wort) in the grain. (grain absorption)

Nope I didn't squeeze it. In fact I just take out my grain bag in it's cage/strainer and after 20 seconds or so flip the cage/strainer over and just set the bag on top and let it drain for a few minutes. It works great.

 

[copyright1997]

Yea of course it was crushed...at my LHBS when I got my ingredients over the weekend. My post boil volume...well no I think it was on...that was the whole point of my extra long boil to get it close. On both batches I had over 7 gallons of pre-boil volume, so I let it boil down to about 6 then started my hour hops schedule so with evaporation it got just about right. This is great and all, but I feel I'm missing something somewhere, plus it adds 45 min-1 hour to my brew time and 7 gallons boils over way faster than 6.
.

re: crush: I wasn't trying to be a smart-ass, just making sure as it wasn't discussed earlier.

If your pre-boil SG reading was on, there is less need to add extra to the boil. (You will have to adjust your hops based on the larger volume.)

There is no harm to having a longer boil - just make sure that it is before adding hops and/or you adjust your hops based on the longer boil (longer boil and increased volume both increase hops -> IBU efficency).

Grain absorption, just like just about anything in brewing, depends. I haven't conducted any experiments, but I'd guess that it depends on the mosture content in the grain, perhaps on the mash temperature, other factors. Here's a thread discussing (in this case getting a larger than expected absorption): https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f36/good-grain-absorption-factor-water-grain-ratio-52012/. Here's another thread that discussing how it can vary: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f36/how-much-water-does-grain-absorb-42932/

Knowing that once the mash is done, you will get no further absorption. So, given you know the mash liquid volume, and given you know what you want for pre-boil volume, you can adust your sparge volume up or down based on how much is needed.

Me? The only thing I really pay attention to (lazy here) is my gravity readings. I know what my expected pre-boil gravity reading is supposed to be. I know what my mash gravity reading is and how much volume. I know what my sparge gravity reading is and how much volume. So:
pre boil SG = ((mash sg * mash volume) + (sparge sg * sparge volume)) / (mash volume + sparge volume).

[Remember to always adjust SG readings for temperature AND try to get the temperature down to a reasonable number, e.g. < 90]

Thus, I can always adjust (if needed) how much of the sparge is needed to get the pre-boil sg close enough.

Does this make sense? (And relax, don't worry, have a beer and enjoy life!)

 

[Justibone]

Yea of course it was crushed...

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you didn't want to sound snippy, rude, or otherwise use a tone that would turn off others to helping you. Text can be misleading, whereas the same words spoken would perhaps not seem so.

I can sense your frustration. I suggest you start a new thread asking for help, and I further suggest that you attempt not to show your frustration in your replies. No one here is paid for helping you; it would go a long way towards receiving help if it seemed to those attempting assistance that you were, in some way, to some measure, somewhat grateful for their aid.

Good luck. Wish you the best. Cheers.

 

[natewv]

re: crush: I wasn't trying to be a smart-ass, just making sure as it wasn't discussed earlier.

If your pre-boil SG reading was on, there is less need to add extra to the boil. (You will have to adjust your hops based on the larger volume.)

There is no harm to having a longer boil - just make sure that it is before adding hops and/or you adjust your hops based on the longer boil (longer boil and increased volume both increase hops -> IBU efficency).

Grain absorption, just like just about anything in brewing, depends. I haven't conducted any experiments, but I'd guess that it depends on the mosture content in the grain, perhaps on the mash temperature, other factors. Here's a thread discussing (in this case getting a larger than expected absorption): https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f36/good-grain-absorption-factor-water-grain-ratio-52012/. Here's another thread that discussing how it can vary: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f36/how-much-water-does-grain-absorb-42932/

Knowing that once the mash is done, you will get no further absorption. So, given you know the mash liquid volume, and given you know what you want for pre-boil volume, you can adust your sparge volume up or down based on how much is needed.

Me? The only thing I really pay attention to (lazy here) is my gravity readings. I know what my expected pre-boil gravity reading is supposed to be. I know what my mash gravity reading is and how much volume. I know what my sparge gravity reading is and how much volume. So:
pre boil SG = ((mash sg * mash volume) + (sparge sg * sparge volume)) / (mash volume + sparge volume).

[Remember to always adjust SG readings for temperature AND try to get the temperature down to a reasonable number, e.g. < 90]

Thus, I can always adjust (if needed) how much of the sparge is needed to get the pre-boil sg close enough.

Does this make sense? (And relax, don't worry, have a beer and enjoy life!)

copyright...No worries and sorry about that I could have sworn I mentioned crushing them before but I guess I didn't...that and I was trying to let you know I'd covered most of my bases. lol and yea was maybe at a loss too.

It turns out on a MD brewers group someone who busy from the same LHBS as I mentioned buying a grain mill and their "efficiency went through the roof" leading me to believe reading your comment maybe it's their mill?

I can't believe i missed your idea to change the sparge volume! haha i feel like an idiot. I was so set on doing just what the recipe said, and I didn't put 2 and 2 together that of course you won't get much more absorption, that's a great fix, if I do not want to boil as much. Thanks.

So what if I just measure my mash SG, and then only sparge with the amount that will give me my planned pre-boil volume (speaking of lazy)?

Also, even with a tool like this on http://www.brewcalcs.com/ I'm going to get a more accurate gravity when I get the temp lower, huh?

 

[natewv]

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you didn't want to sound snippy, rude, or otherwise use a tone that would turn off others to helping you. Text can be misleading, whereas the same words spoken would perhaps not seem so.

I can sense your frustration. I suggest you start a new thread asking for help, and I further suggest that you attempt not to show your frustration in your replies. No one here is paid for helping you; it would go a long way towards receiving help if it seemed to those attempting assistance that you were, in some way, to some measure, somewhat grateful for their aid.

Good luck. Wish you the best. Cheers.

ahhhhhhh, I probably shouldn't even hit submit, but you shouldn't say you will give me the benefit of the doubt, and then clearly not give me the benefit of the doubt, so here goes...

You are quite right I was slightly exhasperated and I apologized to copyright for the tone. I get the feeling if I simply put a smiley at the end it would be all good, yet I'd be remiss not to point out that I happen to be, in real life, a bit of a ball buster. I'm guessing (hoping) most homebrewers are. I do value your input and hope you'd offer it again, but this isn't a polite Q&A with your manager, it's casual camaraderie with like-minded, possibly slightly buzzed folks. Come on, RDWHAHB&EL!

Siriusly, this thread has taught me a lot and thanks for your input. Sorry if I offended you, and Cheers back!

 

[copyright1997]

copyright...No worries and sorry about that I could have sworn I mentioned crushing them before but I guess I didn't...that and I was trying to let you know I'd covered most of my bases. lol and yea was maybe at a loss too.

It turns out on a MD brewers group someone who busy from the same LHBS as I mentioned buying a grain mill and their "efficiency went through the roof" leading me to believe reading your comment maybe it's their mill?

I can't believe i missed your idea to change the sparge volume! haha i feel like an idiot. I was so set on doing just what the recipe said, and I didn't put 2 and 2 together that of course you won't get much more absorption, that's a great fix, if I do not want to boil as much. Thanks.

So what if I just measure my mash SG, and then only sparge with the amount that will give me my planned pre-boil volume (speaking of lazy)?

Also, even with a tool like this on http://www.brewcalcs.com/ I'm going to get a more accurate gravity when I get the temp lower, huh?

re: efficiency. When I did my first batch with my new Barley Crusher vs lhbs crush, I overshot my target gravity by 20 points.

re: Sparge. Yes, that works. I tend to do a bit more than needed because I want the water heated up and ready to go when the mash is done, and I don't know the mash volume until it is done. If you "waste" a bit of the sparge liquid (that is not use it), not that big a deal as you either catch it before the sparge (in which case you just throw away the extra heated water), or if you use it for the sparge and don't use quite all of it, it is lesser SG and mathematically won't effect your pre-boil SG that much. (For example, your sparging but then throwing away a quart or two of 1.020 sparge liquid isn't that much in terms of potential fermentables.)

I did a batch yesterday. I don't have the figures here, but my mash volume was just about what BeerSmith said it would be based on the grain bill. So, I didn't have to play around with the sparge volume but if needed I would have. I actually did a mash + 2 sparges, only because I screwed up with what pot I was using for the sparge and didn't have enough space. When I get home later I will try to post what the recipe (and BeerSmith) estimated and what I did, along with the volumes. I will say that I don't know (and don't care) what the post-boil volume was, I only care that I came close to the estimated SG.

One more thing. Just about every batch, *something* doesn't work right. Yesterday, I decided to use my new turkey fryer kit I got from target for $59. Actually, I only wanted to use the burner so I could do a full-boil of 6+ gallons. Anyway, I had put my immersion chiller in the pot to sterilize it (15 minute at end of wort boil), went in the house, and when I came back I found my plastic tubing from both ends of the IC melted/on fire/ hanging by the side. So I had to scramble to find tubing to attach...in the meantime my wort was done. In the process of cutting the old tubing off and putting the new on, I managed to drop one of the compression clamps in the wort! So, I had to try to find one of those from something else.

What I'm trying to said is stuff happens. (At least to me.) But, I'd bet even after all of this, the beer will turn out a ok.

When I used to back country hike a lot, we had a saying. "Doing one thing wrong doesn't usually get you killed, it's when you do a number of things wrong". I think making beer is somewhat like this, and what I like about doing all-grain and buying in group buys is that the cost of the batch gets reduced so that it isn't the end of the world if it isn't perfect. (I estimate the cost of the blonde ale, 5 gallon batch I brewed yesterday at less than $13 w/re-using yeast.)

 

[tennesseean_87]

Here is some more praise for the tutorial. After 2 extract brew with another noob friend, we decided to take the plunge, but have been doing half batches until today. I did the first myself and came out around 67% eff. on Ed Wort's Haus PA. Then I did his Robust Porter by myself and hit 76%. Today we pulled off 75% on a 5.5 gal batch of How Now Brown Ale, despite having some spillage and a totally full 5 gal kettle which caused the nylon bag to pull wort out throughout the mash due to capillary action. I haven't tasted any yet (Haus Pale is still bottle conditioning), but can't see going back to paying extract prices.

Using more sparge water helped hit higher efficiency. Holding the mash temp was greatly helped by my building a floating lid from styrofoam and aluminum foil. I was able to eliminate all head space (but used lid over the top of this) and poked my dial thermometer through to get quick, accurate temperature readings.

 

[vitrael]

Just wanted to say DB, I used this method for the first time this morning doing a small partial mash and got a nice efficiency--probably close to 70%, I'll know to a higher degree of accuracy at pitching time. It was also lickity-split simple, very clean, and didn't involve any new equipment for me other than the nylon bag (and I used had a spare 5G paint bag I had kicking around from building my hop spider).

Thanks for the tutorial and keep rocking sir.

 

[vitrael]

Update: 72% efficiency, hit my estimated OG EXACTLY

 

[h22lude]

I've been wanting to try this method out. It is getting really cold outside so brewing inside is so much better. My stove won't do 5 gallons so I'm going to try out a half batch first. I keep on looking at Yooper's House Pale Ale recipe so I picked up half the ingredients for that. I'm going to kill two birds with one brew...Easy Stovetop All-Grain Brewing with Yooper's House Pale Ale.

 

[EdMerican]

If you haven't tried this method, but have been thinking about it, DO IT. Super easy way to get into the joys and versatility of AG brewing. The only drawback is draining the grain bag after mash and sparge. Holding it up for as long as it takes to drain off well is tough on the lats. It helps to have a partner hold your elbows up, then hold a bolw under the bag as you move it to its final location.

 

[borden]

If you haven't tried this method, but have been thinking about it, DO IT. Super easy way to get into the joys and versatility of AG brewing. The only drawback is draining the grain bag after mash and sparge. Holding it up for as long as it takes to drain off well is tough on the lats. It helps to have a partner hold your elbows up, then hold a bolw under the bag as you move it to its final location.

A wood or metal mash paddle helps. I stick my wood one across the top of the kettle and drape the bag over it. Only takes a couple minutes to drain out a lot of the liquid, and the paddle takes most of the weight. You could substitute a clean 2x4 if you had to, too. Really, anything strong enough to not break or bend over the top of the pot as you let the bag drain over it.

 

[reibrew]

would it be possible to get a 6 gallon for the main boil, heat up my sparge in a small pot and dump it into my primary, set the bag in there after the hour of the main boil, and then add in the original wort to the primary after the sparge?

I'm cheap and don't want to get 2 huge pots. Can't seem to find them cheap in canada

 

[vitrael]

would it be possible to get a 6 gallon for the main boil, heat up my sparge in a small pot and dump it into my primary, set the bag in there after the hour of the main boil, and then add in the original wort to the primary after the sparge?

I'm cheap and don't want to get 2 huge pots. Can't seem to find them cheap in canada

I'm not sure how you would heat up enough sparge water or where you would put the hot mash wort while you were using the mash/boil kettle for sparging. Really there's no way a large economy pot costs more than 2-3 all grain batches so why not just save yourself the work? Order it from Northern Brewer or something.