DYI Control Panel Schematic- Double Check

[Liveforliving]

*Note: I will be having an electric professional personally inspect my electrical setup prior to powering it on.

I've been slowly working on my electric setup. I've completed the control box and just need to double check I have the wiring right. It's based from the instructables http://www.instructables.com/id/Electric-Brewery-Control-Panel-on-the-Cheap/?ALLSTEPS. His schematic appeared to have a couple errors and I made a couple changes.

Anyone see any errors or questions? I really want to be confident before calling in the professional. Once the box is cleared, we're getting the breaker installed and officially joining the exciting world of electric brewing.

Thanks Folks

View attachment Our Schmatic v1.pdf

 

[doug293cz]

You have some problems with that design.

1. The way you wired the main power switch, you have all of the element current running thru the switch. This is a bad idea, would require a switch rated for at least 30A, and defeats the purpose of havin a contactor to switch the high currents.
2. Unless you use 3000W or less elements, you cannot use both elements at the same time, but there is nothing in the design that would prevent you from powering both elements at once. 10AWG wire is only rated for 30A. If you use the typical 5500W elements, those draw 23A. Using both at once would require 46A. With pumps & margin, you need a 60A feed, requiring 4AWG wiring incoming to the panel.
3. You don't have any fuses or breakers to protect the thinner gauge wiring. This is a code violation.

I recently did a design that provides pretty much the same functionality as your design, but does not have the same deficiencies as yours.



The above design is for a 60A feed allowing both elements to be fired simultaneously. If you don't want to fire both elements at the same time, the design could be modified with a 3-way (on-off-on) switch which would prevent simultaneous firing.

Brew on

 

[atoughram]

You have some problems with that design.

1. The way you wired the main power switch, you have all of the element current running thru the switch. This is a bad idea, would require a switch rated for at least 30A, and defeats the purpose of havin a contactor to switch the high currents.
2. Unless you use 3000W or less elements, you cannot use both elements at the same time, but there is nothing in the design that would prevent you from powering both elements at once. 10AWG wire is only rated for 30A. If you use the typical 5500W elements, those draw 23A. Using both at once would require 46A. With pumps & margin, you need a 60A feed, requiring 4AWG wiring incoming to the panel.
3. You don't have any fuses or breakers to protect the thinner gauge wiring. This is a code violation.

I recently did a design that provides pretty much the same functionality as your design, but does not have the same deficiencies as yours.

View attachment 327127

The above design is for a 60A feed allowing both elements to be fired simultaneously. If you don't want to fire both elements at the same time, the design could be modified with a 3-way (on-off-on) switch which would prevent simultaneous firing.

Brew on

What is the center PID for?

 

[doug293cz]

What is the center PID for?

Just an expensive digital thermometer, but that's what the requester wanted. OP is doing exactly the same thing.

Brew on

 

[atoughram]

Just an expensive digital thermometer, but that's what the requester wanted. OP is doing exactly the same thing.

Brew on

Thanks

 

[Liveforliving]

You have some problems with that design.

1. The way you wired the main power switch, you have all of the element current running thru the switch. This is a bad idea, would require a switch rated for at least 30A, and defeats the purpose of havin a contactor to switch the high currents.
2. Unless you use 3000W or less elements, you cannot use both elements at the same time, but there is nothing in the design that would prevent you from powering both elements at once. 10AWG wire is only rated for 30A. If you use the typical 5500W elements, those draw 23A. Using both at once would require 46A. With pumps & margin, you need a 60A feed, requiring 4AWG wiring incoming to the panel.
3. You don't have any fuses or breakers to protect the thinner gauge wiring. This is a code violation.

I recently did a design that provides pretty much the same functionality as your design, but does not have the same deficiencies as yours.

View attachment 327127

The above design is for a 60A feed allowing both elements to be fired simultaneously. If you don't want to fire both elements at the same time, the design could be modified with a 3-way (on-off-on) switch which would prevent simultaneous firing.

Brew on

Thanks Doug, I appreciate the info. I'm going to use your schematic as it is much better and is doing what I'm trying to do. Thanks for sharing it.

1) Got it. Makes sense.
2) I do plan on using both 5500 elements at once. So I need to increase my feed wire to 4awg and upgrade my first contactor to 60A. The 4awg wire will continue until is connects to a breaker. Did you use terminal blocks to split the connections? Any recommendation?
3) Got it. Do the breakers need to be GFCI, or just the main one in the breaker panel box?

 

[doug293cz]

Thanks Doug, I appreciate the info. I'm going to use your schematic as it is much better and is doing what I'm trying to do. Thanks for sharing it.

1) Got it. Makes sense.
2) I do plan on using both 5500 elements at once. So I need to increase my feed wire to 4awg and upgrade my first contactor to 60A. The 4awg wire will continue until is connects to a breaker. Did you use terminal blocks to split the connections? Any recommendation?
3) Got it. Do the breakers need to be GFCI, or just the main one in the breaker panel box?

I put the drawing together for another HBT member. It's not for my system.

2) Best practice is to use 4AWG on the hot wires (line 1 & line 2) up to the lower amp breaker or fuse. That way if you have a short between the main contactor and the breaker/fuse, the wire involved with the fault will not heat up enough to start a fire in your panel. Ground connection to the panel enclosure should be 4AWG, and grounds to the elements should be 10AWG. Neutrals should be 14AWG to the 120V outlets, but can be down to 20AWG elsewhere. The neutral wire size can be reduced coming off of the neutral bus. I would recommend using terminal blocks. I haven't built my panel yet, so don't have recommendations on the terminal blocks.

3) Only the main breaker, which is not shown in this panel design, needs to be GFCI. The GFCI breaker can be in your main service panel, or a spa panel between your service panel and control panel.

Brew on

 

[Liveforliving]

So, this gets expensive. 60amp stuff is hard to find...
The relay is $72: http://www.automationdirect.com/adc...ctors_-z-_Overloads/65_to_80_Amp/SC-E3-110VAC

I haven't really found a good source of wire, receptacles, plug, terminal blocks, etc...

The goal is for the BK to heat the strike water and the HLT to heat the HERMS Coil and then provide the sparge water. Thus I want both 5500 elements (one on BK, one on HLT) to work at the same time.

Looking at it, pumps use about 1.5amps...so 46A for the elements and 3A for the pumps= 49A. Too close I suspect for a 50A breaker and relay?

I don't see much on the forums on powering two elements at the same time and how they did it. Am I doing something deemed inefficient or is there a better way I'm not seeing?

I'm all game to change strategies if there's a better way.

 

[doug293cz]

Auber has a 63A contactor for $25 (http://www.auberins.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=2_31&products_id=439.)

You could look at going with 4500W elements to get your total amps down.

Brew on

 

[Liveforliving]

Oh nice. And the coil would be 110 from your schematic, right?

 

[doug293cz]

Oh nice. And the coil would be 110 from your schematic, right?

Yes

Brew on

 

[Bobby_M]

There are a lot of tricks to running a 30 amp max HERMS system with only one element. Fill the HLT up to the tippy top, set the controller for 170F. When you transfer your strike water to the MLT, you'll top up the HLT with cooler water but it will get it down to near mash temps anyway. You'll still set the controller to your mash temp and it will recover by the time you're all doughed in, it will be ready for the HERMS loop.

You only need to run both elements at the same time if you want to do back to back batches.

 

[doug293cz]

There are a lot of tricks to running a 30 amp max HERMS system with only one element. Fill the HLT up to the tippy top, set the controller for 170F. When you transfer your strike water to the MLT, you'll top up the HLT with cooler water but it will get it down to near mash temps anyway. You'll still set the controller to your mash temp and it will recover by the time you're all doughed in, it will be ready for the HERMS loop.

You only need to run both elements at the same time if you want to do back to back batches.

You can save a good bit of money on the panel if you can convince yourself that you don't need to fire both elements at once. You'll only need a 30A service, you won't need the two 30A breakers in the panel, you won't need anything more than 10AWG wire, etc. If you do decide to go that way, you need to change the element switching so that it is not possible to turn on both elements at once. I can modify the schematic if you want.

Brew on

 

[FuzzeWuzze]

So, this gets expensive. 60amp stuff is hard to find...
The relay is $72: http://www.automationdirect.com/adc...ctors_-z-_Overloads/65_to_80_Amp/SC-E3-110VAC

I haven't really found a good source of wire, receptacles, plug, terminal blocks, etc...

The goal is for the BK to heat the strike water and the HLT to heat the HERMS Coil and then provide the sparge water. Thus I want both 5500 elements (one on BK, one on HLT) to work at the same time.

Looking at it, pumps use about 1.5amps...so 46A for the elements and 3A for the pumps= 49A. Too close I suspect for a 50A breaker and relay?

I don't see much on the forums on powering two elements at the same time and how they did it. Am I doing something deemed inefficient or is there a better way I'm not seeing?

I'm all game to change strategies if there's a better way.

Im confused by this, how big of batches are we talking here?

Typically dual element setups are used for back to back batches, not for what your describing. What your describing could easily be accomplished by just putting your strike water into your MLT and pumping it through your HLT coil as you war up the HLT...both your HLT water comes to strike temp, and your strike water pumping through comes to temp. Obviously it will be a bit slower heating up all the water with 1 element, but your looking at a lot of additional cost.

Honestly i wouldnt bother with dual elements unless you need B2B setup, your looking at adding several hundred dollars to your build, not to mention the many hundreds of dollars to install a 60A GFCI breaker.

 

[Liveforliving]

Our batches will typically be 10-15 gallons. If that's not too much water (or going to take a ridiculously too much time to heat up) for the 5500 element, than I'll go for a 30A system with one on at a time.

 

[WScottCross]

He stated in another thread that he is using 25 gallon kettles for up to 15 gallon batches. I'm using 30 gallon kettles for 15-20 gallon batches and am also doing a 50A back to back setup to heat strike water in the boil kettle while also heating the HLT. It CAN be done with a 30 amp panel, but it takes longer and requires topping up the HLT after you transfer the strike water and then waiting for it to heat back up. Large batches already take about 50% longer, so wherever we can cut some time out of the brew day is worth the extra expense to me.

Edit:
The 5500 watt elements heat 1 gallon 1 degree every 1.6 seconds so heating 25 gallons from 65 to 175 will take 73 minutes. If you transfer half of that for strike water and then add another 6 gallons of 65 degree make-up water, you end up with 18 gallons at 130 degrees and those 18 gallons will take almost another 15 minutes to get back up to 155 to 160 before we can start recirculating. Being able to heat 12 gallons of strike water in the boil kettle from 65 to 175 will take 35 minutes. Heating 20 gallons of water in the HLT from 65 to 160 will take 50 minutes and then we can start recirc at the 50 minute point instead of almost 90 minutes. Both ways work, it just depends on whether your priority is cost or speed. For me, the cost is a one time expense and the time will be recurring and will build up. Also, I've already built up from 3 gallon to 5 gallon to 8 gallon to 15 gallon kettles. This time I went with 30 gallon kettles to ensure I can brew bigger batches, but if I want even bigger kettles in the future, my panel will be ready.

 

[FuzzeWuzze]

He stated in another thread that he is using 25 gallon kettles for up to 15 gallon batches. I'm using 30 gallon kettles for 15-20 gallon batches and am also doing a 50A back to back setup to heat strike water in the boil kettle while also heating the HLT. It CAN be done with a 30 amp panel, but it takes longer and requires topping up the HLT after you transfer the strike water and then waiting for it to heat back up. Large batches already take about 50% longer, so wherever we can cut some time out of the brew day is worth the extra expense to me.

Edit:
The 5500 watt elements heat 1 gallon 1 degree every 1.6 seconds so heating 25 gallons from 65 to 175 will take 73 minutes. If you transfer half of that for strike water and then add another 6 gallons of 65 degree make-up water, you end up with 18 gallons at 130 degrees and those 18 gallons will take almost another 15 minutes to get back up to 155 to 160 before we can start recirculating. Being able to heat 12 gallons of strike water in the boil kettle from 65 to 175 will take 35 minutes. Heating 20 gallons of water in the HLT from 65 to 160 will take 50 minutes and then we can start recirc at the 50 minute point instead of almost 90 minutes. Both ways work, it just depends on whether your priority is cost or speed. For me, the cost is a one time expense and the time will be recurring and will build up. Also, I've already built up from 3 gallon to 5 gallon to 8 gallon to 15 gallon kettles. This time I went with 30 gallon kettles to ensure I can brew bigger batches, but if I want even bigger kettles in the future, my panel will be ready.

Thats what im saying though, dont top up. Put your strike water in your mash, turn on your pump and pump your strike water through your HERMS coil like you do during mash. Then your 5500W element is heating the HLT water, and your also heating the strike water pumping through the coil at the same time. It will take longer than being able to do it in the BK at the same time yes, but should be as fast as moving strike water and topping back up with more cold water, maybe slightly faster because your not taking time to move hoses and run pumps for X minutes.

I know that heating 20 gallons with my element takes about 50 minutes from low 60's to the 155 range, not sure why you keep saying 175 im not sure why you would ever heat your HLT that high? Just to dampen the cooling from the top off water?

 

[Liveforliving]

Thats what im saying though, dont top up. Put your strike water in your mash, turn on your pump and pump your strike water through your HERMS coil like you do during mash. Then your 5500W element is heating the HLT water, and your also heating the strike water pumping through the coil at the same time. It will take longer than being able to do it in the BK at the same time yes, but should be as fast as moving strike water and topping back up with more cold water, maybe slightly faster because your not taking time to move hoses and run pumps for X minutes.

I know that heating 20 gallons with my element takes about 50 minutes from low 60's to the 155 range, not sure why you keep saying 175 im not sure why you would ever heat your HLT that high? Just to dampen the cooling from the top off water?

I'm assuming the 175 mentioned was for a strike temperature? Do you even need a strike temperature why you're just going to cycle it in the HERMS?

Reviewing the information and what I have, I'm going to go with the 60 Amp system and use Doug's schematic. It's not going to cost me too much more at this point (maybe an extra $100). I bought a spa 60A breaker for $90 (verses $60 for a 50A). Doug found a 60A contactor for $25. The rest of the breakers are cheap. I was going to have a plug and receptacle for the control panel, but that was the most expansive parts, so I'm skipping it. I'll just "turn off" the whole system by flipping the spa breaker. From there, the rest of the cost is wiring. Luckily, my basement is unfinished and the brew station is going to be about 15 feet away from the house panel.

 

[doug293cz]

I'm assuming the 175 mentioned was for a strike temperature? Do you even need a strike temperature why you're just going to cycle it in the HERMS?

HERMS is not very efficient at heating for large temp differences. If the mash doesn't start off near the target temperature, it will take a long time to get the mash up to temperature.

Reviewing the information and what I have, I'm going to go with the 60 Amp system and use Doug's schematic. It's not going to cost me too much more at this point (maybe an extra $100). I bought a spa 60A breaker for $90 (verses $60 for a 50A). Doug found a 60A contactor for $25. The rest of the breakers are cheap. I was going to have a plug and receptacle for the control panel, but that was the most expansive parts, so I'm skipping it. I'll just "turn off" the whole system by flipping the spa breaker. From there, the rest of the cost is wiring. Luckily, my basement is unfinished and the brew station is going to be about 15 feet away from the house panel.

Glad I could be of help. Good luck with the project.

Brew on

 

[WScottCross]

Thats what im saying though, dont top up. Put your strike water in your mash, turn on your pump and pump your strike water through your HERMS coil like you do during mash. Then your 5500W element is heating the HLT water, and your also heating the strike water pumping through the coil at the same time. It will take longer than being able to do it in the BK at the same time yes, but should be as fast as moving strike water and topping back up with more cold water, maybe slightly faster because your not taking time to move hoses and run pumps for X minutes.

I know that heating 20 gallons with my element takes about 50 minutes from low 60's to the 155 range, not sure why you keep saying 175 im not sure why you would ever heat your HLT that high? Just to dampen the cooling from the top off water?

Sorry for the confusion, I do use 175 for strike water temp. I wrote it that way since we are discussing transferring strike water and then topping up to get back above the HERMS coil and have enough sparge water volume. HERMS is good at maintaining the set temp, but not as efficient at getting it there. I guess you could treat it like a step mash and start out at lower temps and ramp it up to mash out temp. For the moderate increase in price, it was worth it to me go 50A.