Dwarf Hops

[Apimyces]

Like I said:

In due time.

I already have about 30 different kinds of whole leaf cones to brew with in the meanwhile, though. Only had the chance to try a few so far, I should get back to my brews!

 

[Apimyces]

The dwarf hops that are out there are proprietary and unavailable. True dwarf hops have a single recessive gene that controls height, but you could also breed for a "dwarf-stature" with quantitative genetics.

Also, yes, many conventional varieties can be grown on a short trellis but the subsequent decrease in overall yield and increased labor costs don't lend to sustainable production.

You'd be better off growing on a normal trellis with a dwarf variety than a conventional variety on a short trellis.

About proprietary rights... since you work in the business, perhaps you could clarify a few points on it?

Many dwarf hops were developped in the UK. First Gold and Boadicea, for example, both came from Wye College. So... public, right? Anyone can sell and propagate these rhizomes, and no royalties are due?

I assume the same extends to their progeny? Say I cross an F1 First Gold seedling with an F1 Boadicea seedlings, I'd be allowed 1) legal and 2) allowed to state as much?

What about private cultivars? If one gets whole leaf hops from a private cultivar with some seeds and manages to germinate it, is this legal? The consumer never signed any non-propagation agreement, after all. And he's not propagating a clone of the protected variety, but a cross.

Could he advertise it as such, though? This has two legal aspects, though, since most of these have names that are registered trademarks, which to my understanding, one can't use in marketing without the registrant's approval.

From my understanding of these laws, one would be able to make a Summit™ F1 and commercialize it, for example, but would not be allowed to ever mention the name "Summit™" without explicit authorization from the ADHA to do so, because that'd be akin to usurping their brand. But since First Gold and Boadicea are public cultivars, one would both be allowed to breed from them and state their presence in the new cultivar's ancestry.

 

[PapaBearJay]

Except the Wye College program no longer exists...I believe it shut down in 2009....and the breeder and all its germplasm went into private industry. I don't know all the specifics, but you probably won't find either outside of the UK (plant material) probably for a number of reasons. Unless it's under license..?

I would like to think that hellfire and brimstone wouldn't be leashed upon anyone for growing F1s, but there are probably a lot of reasons why they might anyways.

Also, the likelihood of getting what you want with 5 seed from Summit hops is...limited. It's all a numbers game, you know that.

Just saying...

 

[Apimyces]

Except the Wye College program no longer exists...I believe it **** down in 2009....and the breeder and all its germplasm went into private industry. I don't know all the specifics, but you probably won't find either outside of the UK, probably for a number of reasons.

I would like to think that hellfire and brimstone wouldn't be leashed upon anyone for growing F1s, but there are probably a lot of reasons why they might anyways.

Also, the likelihood of getting what you want with 5 seed from Summit hops is...limited. It's all a numbers game, you know that.

Just saying...

I don't even think I can get my hands on Summit whole leaf hops, though I haven't really specifically looked for them yet (I learned about them after ordering a whole bunch of hops, which I have not yet gone through). Just looked at my supplier, damn, seems like he only has 2 whole leaf hops now... he had like 30 when I last ordered from him. Sure enough, Summit's only available as pellets. A pity, it'd have been nice to have dwarf genetics from a completely separate breeding line from the UK's. Having some SummitF1(male)xBoadicea crosses to work with would have been appreciated. After all, on most metrics, Summit beats First Gold.

Summit is both said to be a dwarf and a semi-dwarf, though, what does that mean? It's homozygous for the dwarf allele, but just overly vigorous and tall anyways? Or it's heterozygous for the dwarf allele, and just exeptionnaly short for a non-dwarf? Does having the dwarf allele once make any difference than not having it at all (is dwarfism recessive, partially recessive, or codominant?)?

The British dwarves, I know I can get rhizomes for. Since I'm not in the US, I'm allowed to import. There's just extra costs and paperwork involved. But their whole leaf hops, so far, appear to be full of seeds. Not just a handful per oz like I got from the American whole leaf hops, but, like, over a hundred per oz. They appear to not go as nuts over having no seeds in the UK as they do in the Americas, unless it was just that one batch that was out of the norm. Good germination from those so far, even got some of the non-stratified seeds that I had boiled that are starting to germinate (figured I might as well use them to fill the tray, though now that I see my last supplier doesn't offer whole leaf anymore I'll be more careful about not wasting the seeds I have!).

A pity for Wye. You can't "make" a public cultivar private, though, right? The breeders' following work might be private, but First Gold and Boadicea will remain public?

As you said, it's a numbers' game. My criteria aren't very complex: a hop clone that will yield the most commercializable quality cones on 6' treillis without any treatments at my latitudes. I'm not looking for a specific aroma, I'm not looking for specific acid contents, or for specific oil contents, just something hardy and productive enough that yields a cone with value for *something*, whatever that be. But instead of doing 10000s of F1s, I'll just keep doing dozens to hundreds of F1s, F2, F3s, F4s, F5s, etc., as long as it takes, until I find something worthwhile. Might get an interesting F2, might only find something noteworthy in the F7 batches. That's just the luck of the dice. In the meanwhile, I'm having fun, I'm spared from the astronomical costs of a typical hop yard with high trellis and a dedicated greenhouse, and I'll have novel hops for my brews. And as long as I'm not growing acres and acres and acres of it, I'm fairly sure I can find local clients for what those plants will yield me.

 

[PapaBearJay]

Well, Columbus/Tomahawk/Zeus is quite the example of "public gone private"....so you tell me? Also, since both First Gold and Boadicea share a common ancestor, which is derived from wild Neomexicanus, maybe you should start there....?

 

[Apimyces]

Are they? Tomahawk® seems private, but the other two don't, from a very quick search. I can easily find rhizomes for Columbus and Zeus, but I cannot for Tomahawk.

This source gives an individual as a source for Tomahawk, and not a public institution: https://ychhops.com/varieties/tomahawk-brand-f10-cv

So are they really an example of such a thing, because it looks to me like Columbus and Zeus were and remain public, while Tomahawk is and always was private? This does predate my interest in hops, though.

And I already started, got many seedlings already.

If anyone has any Summit hops seeds, though, I'd be interested in having some mailed. The AHDA says they don't even plan on continuing Summit anyways... they may as well just start selling the rhizomes to the public.

 

[PapaBearJay]

Are they? Tomahawk[emoji768] seems private, but the other two don't, from a very quick search. I can easily find rhizomes for Columbus and Zeus, but I cannot for Tomahawk.

This source gives an individual as a source for Tomahawk, and not a public institution: https://ychhops.com/varieties/tomahawk-brand-f10-cv

So are they really an example of such a thing, because it looks to me like Columbus and Zeus were and remain public, while Tomahawk is and always was private? This does predate my interest in hops, though.

And I already started, got many seedlings already.

If anyone has any Summit hops seeds, though, I'd be interested in having some mailed. The AHDA says they don't even plan on continuing Summit anyways... they may as well just start selling the rhizomes to the public.

http://inhoppursuit.blogspot.com/2010/08/indie-hops-exclusive-history-of-ctz.html?m=1

Check this out.

 

[B-Hoppy]

Correct! Looks like someone affiliated with Yakima Chief got their hands on some of the original germplasm (or that of a sibling) and managed to get it patented?

 

[Hanglow]

British hops do tend to have a lot of seeds in them - I think it was thought that hopyards should always have male plants in them as fertilised cones were less susceptible to damage/moisture, as they close up or something like that. Also wild hops grow all over the english countryside, so it's quite likely for the hops to get fertilised anyway

 

[Apimyces]

There must be a repositary of what is patended? And what the extent of the patent covers? Because 2 of these 3 are easy to get one's hands on without signing any contract. Incidently the two which I never see a trademark symbol next to.

There's also a difference between taking unreleased germplasm from the public domain and marketing it privately and taking the rights of something released publicly and making them private.

 

[PapaBearJay]

I don't disagree with you. If you have the capacity to order and receive the plant material, by all means do so! I'm just saying, it shouldn't surprise you that excellent genetics tend to "wind up" in other places sometimes.

 

[Apimyces]

Indeed. I've worked in a few greenhouses and in the horticultural industry patents are also common. Are they always respected? Doubtful. But that's just part of the game, they don't rely on absolute propagation control to make their money. The way the hops industry does it is rather peculiar in my opinion. But I guess their marketing schemes only make sense when one considers all that massive amount of money behind it.

Taking public germplasm and releasing it privately raises it's own share of ethical issues though.

 

[Sierra brew club]

DWARF HOP SPECIES WATED!!
I am waiting on some preMa donna hops coming from England this fall but in the mean time I want to put it out there once it cools off i would like to source some dwarf hops ..

I'm looking to trade for any varieties of hops other folks don't have for some good the dwarf lineage.

 

[Sylvain]

Il have a First Gold/Prima Donna

 

[Apimyces]

I've had plants flower at a mere 1m of height, but otherwise, lacking any trellis worth mention, I'm having a hard time telling which seedlings would qualify as "dwarves" or not.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

Should be able to tell from the internode distance, no?

 

[Apimyces]

Should be able to tell from the internode distance, no?

You'd think, but I'm getting the impression my pots are screwing around with that, because there's a huge amount of variation, both among offspring of dwarf cultivars and among non-dwarf cultivars.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

That sucks. Either you need a bigger field or a PCR machine...

 

[Apimyces]

Both would be nice, bigger field would be a good first step though, since I wouldn't have a clue how to use a PCR machine.

With time, with time... I'll either prep more space, or cull more specimens so that I have more space for each. 'till then, I'd like to have some dwarves, but it's not my highest priority, and with the number of dwarf F1s I have, I reckon I have those alleles in my population one way or another.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

Using a PCR machine is kinda like using a Grainfather or similar - follow a recipe, measure out some ingredients, then programme a temperature profile. Only difference is that you're doing it in 20 microlitres and not 20 litres - and you don't get beer at the end of it.

 

[Apimyces]

Ha, I've never used a grainfather either. Extract/partial mash is so simple. Household kettles, electric oventop, cheap plastic buckets, minimal waste... Who'se got time for sparging? I don't! Too busy making more cuttings of my seedlings and prepping more imports! Just throw that extract into that water, add in hops and fancy stuff, and voilà! Like making mead! And making more is easy, just gotta use a few more buckets. I think I could brew about 100 gallons at a time with my cheapo setup, as long as it's mostly extract and doesn't require too many adjuncts or crystal malts.

Pairs well with my cheapo trellis.

 

[Sylvain]

a precision on my First Gold/ Prima Dona, even adult, it does not exceed 2.5 meters high, it produces many liana and it gives a bush effect