DUI checkpoint!

[niquejim]

I see the same arguments here that I am seeing today with a law recently passed in WA state regarding text messaging while driving. http://www.komotv.com/news/local/7470007.html

People are griping about how "big brother" this law is as well and how this law is taking us down the road to a police state. The government makes laws like this and has DUI checkpoints because some people don't have the common sense to avoid distracting behavior or avoid getting behind the wheel while intoxicated.

I guess no matter what the government does to make people safer, someone is going to be bothered by it, and we will continue to post about it and bicker back and forth. I also suppose that it's pointless for me to get worked up about it, because no one is going to change the way they feel about the issue.

Have a great day.

I don't need the government making my daily life safer from idiots on the highway. I want the Gov to build infrastructure, protect me from external enimies and then leave me alone.

It was stated before but bears repeating
we should well remember the sage counsel of Benjamin Franklin who said, "They that give up essential liberty for temporary security deserve neither."

The more the government does to protect us as a whole makes us weaker as indivduals.

 

[Bobby_M]

I wanted to throw another wrench into the debate. People that are for more governmental safety precaution seem to have some personal bias (not always but I'd bet on it being likely). In this discussion, people that say something like "lose someone due to drunk driving and you'll change you're mind".

Individual tragedies are painful and I fully sympathize with people losing family and friends in tragic ways. However, it does NOT imply that reducing those occurences by .5% take priority over the liberty of the entire population (inluding those who have never suffered such tragedy). I lost my cousin (my best friend at the time) to drunk driving and I still won't support the idea of random and unwarranted sobriety checks.

 

[MikeFlynn74]

When they do the whole "lose someone" BS. You might as well apply that to-

The war
Airplanes
Cars
Fast food
Ciggaretts

Hell lets kill the root of the problem. Alcohol.

 

[Bearcat Brewmeister]

+1 on the Ohio checkpoint BS. These pre-announced checkpoints are a huge waste of manpower that could be more effectively used catching the dangerous repeat offenders.

I was stopped years ago in Ohio before they started doing all of these checkpoints. I had been drinking but tracking my intake and was sure I was well under the limit (4 beers in 3 hours). I do not recall any particular driving manuever that got the officer's attention, but he followed me for 10 minutes and finally pulled me over. He sat me in the car, I blew into the tube, and he released me. He told me he had been following me since I left the bar/restaurant. THIS IS THE WAY YOU CATCH DRUNK DRIVERS. You have officer patrols near places where people drink and watch for the worst drivers (the ones who therefore have a higher likelihood of actually being drunk). Although I wasn't drunk, he pulled me over because of the higher chance that I, compared to just some random driver, was actually drunk.

Twenty-five officers in one spot, or 25 cars patrolling near 25 bars. Not hard to figure out which tactic is more effective in catching drivers that are a real threat to public safety.

 

[Ize]

Checkpoints in the USA. Great. I'll make sure I have my papers ready next time I cross from IL to MO.

(Everyone laughs, but that's the direction we're headed with this BS)

Ize

 

[Bulls Beers]

Once everyone gets comfortable with these checkpoints and soon they will be coming to your house to look for your stash & check you computer for porn.

You should have told the guy in front of you about the anus motion!

My PORN!!!Now they've gone too far....

 

[BierMuncher]

Knowing there are check points on any given weekend is the reason I won't order that third beer with dinner when I'm out...and wait till I get home to tap-the-goodness.

So I guess the check points are effective in that regard.

They're also the reason I'll break out the BMBF and fill a 12-pack with my own 3.2% session beer when going to a frends house.

 

[Ize]

It's not busting drunk drivers that's bothering me, it's the fact that we are now creating check-points in the US to combat drunk driving... doesn't this seem a bit off? At these check points we have to prove our innocence since we are being perceived as guilty?

Ize

 

[EvilTOJ]

That's the American Way, Ize. Guilty until proven innocent. EDIT: Unless you're a celebrity.

At my old job I would commute to work at 4:30 AM, including Saturday mornings. I was pulled over twice in my years of commuting in the morning because I was 'acting suspicious'. It really pissed off my coworker too, who was carpooling with me because we both ended up being late for work.

Bearcat got caught by, IMO, the BEST way to catch the drunks; have the cops wait next to the bars. If anything I think that would be more of a deterrent, knowing (not just in an abstract way, thinking "it's Friday night so the cops must be out" but actually SEEING them close by) that it's likely you'll get busted.

Note: Yes I do know they let you go Bearcat, but I'm making an example out of you as a lesson to the others

 

[bobjenkins79]

If you already know that all the cops are on one side of town running these silly checkpoints, doesn't that leave the other side of town, (and the other bars) unwatched?

Seems to me this may actually encourage repeat offenders.

 

[PeteOz77]

Well, here I go, my first post as a NEWB in this forum, and I am going to jump right into a messy thread

I used to drink and drive a LOT when I was younger, I can honestly assure you that I drove well over the limit at least a THOUSAND times between the age of 17 and 30. The limit was .10 at that time and I stopped at the local at least 3-5 times a week..plus partying on the weekends. I never killed anyone, and was only ever in one accident..where I fell asleep on the way home from a party at 5am. Drunk driving was pretty much a way of life for a LOT of people in Rural Minnesota where I came from. It was socially acceptable.

I got 2 DWI tickets in the space of 3 years, one for driving like an idiot (tires smoking in all 3 gears up main street) and once when a concerned driver that was following me, decided to ring the gestapo because I was bumping the shoulder of the road occasionally.. When I got my second DWI< I quit drinking for nearly 2 years to prove to myself I didn't have a problem.

Nine and a half years ago, I moved to Australia, married a fantastic Aussie girl and have never looked back. I quickly discovered that a lot of things were different here. While there are a LOT less lawsuits, there are a LOT more laws to follow, and the Government keeps a LOT tighter leash on the population here. I won't go into all of the differences, so, trying to keep on topic of this thread, I will focus on the RBT (Random Breath Test)

Like you are starting to discover in USA, this RBT process has two functions, 1 is to raise revenue, 2 is to make everyone feel good, like the Police and Local Gov are doing everything they can to make the general population "safer" The BAC limit here is .05, the beer has an average of 4.5% and the bottles and glasses are bigger (375ml vs 330ml like USA), so you have to pretty much be an idiot to drink 2 beers in less than 2 hours and get behind the wheel.

When I say RANDOM breath test I mean RANDOM. I have been stopped on a Tuesday morning at 9am for an RBT. You NEVER know when you are going to drive through one, although they are much more likely on Fri and Sat around 11PM in certain hot spots...but you just never know.

Does this reduce drink driving? Probably. Does it reduce drunk driving related deaths? Probably. Is it a Pain in the ASS? DEFINITELY! Considering that I just do NOT drink and drive, having to pull over for no reason and get tested feels like a violation of my rights. Keep in mind there is no dance, no pen, no "field sobriety test" just blow in the little straw while sitting in your car.

Now I have to take issue with this practice for two reasons:

#1. I know a LOT of people that smoke dope. I consider the effects of Marijuana to be just as debilitating as Alcohol, but they are free to drive stoned out of their minds without fear of the RBT. They laugh at me when I say i can't have a 2nd beer, as they fire up the bong again.

#2. Australia is a BIG place, and it is not heavily populated, so there are a lot of people driving great distances at a time. "Driver Reviver" stations are set up to encourage drivers to stop on the side of the road, have a chocolate bar and coffee (free of charge!) so they can stay awake. You see signs everywhere that say "Stop, Revive, Survive" and "Take a break every 2 hours" etc. The reason for this is that over 30% of all road deaths in Australia are related to Fatigue, while less than 26% are related to Drink Driving. This quote comes from the Austrlaian Gov Webs site:

"A driver who gets behind the wheel after 17 hours without sleep is impaired to the same extent as if driving with a blood alcohol content of 0.05."

So it's legal to drive tired and be more likely Kill more people than a drunk driver.... There is no penalty or roadside test for Fatigue, but it's MUCH more likely to kill someone on the road.

I would propose a roadside test that actually tests your reaction time and alertness, rather than the Dope, BAC,etc. At the end of the day, it's not the chemical you have ingested that is the problem, it's the effect it has on your ability to drive. I would be willing to bet there are a LOT of old people on the road that are a lot more dangerous than I am with a BAC of .05%.

For some reason, it's legal to be stoned, tired, stupid, old or anything else that impairs your ability to drive, but not to have a BAC over a certain number (keeping in mind that people with a tolerance are most likely not impaired in any way at that level)

OK, that rant is over. Why do I hate the RBT so much? 6-7 years ago, I was driving back from a friend's house. I had been there for 4 hours and had 2 bottles of beer. I rolled up to an RBT in my wife's car. I passed the test without a worry, but while in the little roadside revenue generator, one of the hard working officer's checked the registration sticker on the car. My wife had the new sticker in her handbag, but had not applied it to the windscreen, or asked me to, so it was not displayed.

My wife was at home... I had no proof the registration was paid, I got booked. I not only got booked for no registration ($450), but also for no insurance ($450). In australia, if your car is not registered, your insurance is not valid, so even though you DO have insurance, it is not valid on an unregistered car. To add insult to injury, after getting $900 worth of tickets, the car had to be left on the side of the road, as it could not be driven unregistered. I walked 2.5 miles home, got the sticker and walked back, put the sticker on and drove home.

So that's Why i hate RBT's They focus on a "Problem" that is smaller than sleepy drivers, and they inconvenience everyone on the road.

Do I want them to stop? No, not really, I do feel safer on the roads that i know are a lot freer of drunk drivers. Sometimes we have to give in a little bit on the civil liberties to live in a better, safer place I guess

 

[Jesse17]

Well, here I go, my first post as a NEWB in this forum, and I am going to jump right into a messy thread

I used to drink and drive a LOT when I was younger, I can honestly assure you that I drove well over the limit at least a THOUSAND times between the age of 17 and 30. The limit was .10 at that time and I stopped at the local at least 3-5 times a week..plus partying on the weekends. I never killed anyone, and was only ever in one accident..where I fell asleep on the way home from a party at 5am. Drunk driving was pretty much a way of life for a LOT of people in Rural Minnesota where I came from. It was socially acceptable.

I got 2 DWI tickets in the space of 3 years, one for driving like an idiot (tires smoking in all 3 gears up main street) and once when a concerned driver that was following me, decided to ring the gestapo because I was bumping the shoulder of the road occasionally.. When I got my second DWI< I quit drinking for nearly 2 years to prove to myself I didn't have a problem.

Nine and a half years ago, I moved to Australia, married a fantastic Aussie girl and have never looked back. I quickly discovered that a lot of things were different here. While there are a LOT less lawsuits, there are a LOT more laws to follow, and the Government keeps a LOT tighter leash on the population here. I won't go into all of the differences, so, trying to keep on topic of this thread, I will focus on the RBT (Random Breath Test)

Like you are starting to discover in USA, this RBT process has two functions, 1 is to raise revenue, 2 is to make everyone feel good, like the Police and Local Gov are doing everything they can to make the general population "safer" The BAC limit here is .05, the beer has an average of 4.5% and the bottles and glasses are bigger (375ml vs 330ml like USA), so you have to pretty much be an idiot to drink 2 beers in less than 2 hours and get behind the wheel.

When I say RANDOM breath test I mean RANDOM. I have been stopped on a Tuesday morning at 9am for an RBT. You NEVER know when you are going to drive through one, although they are much more likely on Fri and Sat around 11PM in certain hot spots...but you just never know.

Does this reduce drink driving? Probably. Does it reduce drunk driving related deaths? Probably. Is it a Pain in the ASS? DEFINITELY! Considering that I just do NOT drink and drive, having to pull over for no reason and get tested feels like a violation of my rights. Keep in mind there is no dance, no pen, no "field sobriety test" just blow in the little straw while sitting in your car.

Now I have to take issue with this practice for two reasons:

#1. I know a LOT of people that smoke dope. I consider the effects of Marijuana to be just as debilitating as Alcohol, but they are free to drive stoned out of their minds without fear of the RBT. They laugh at me when I say i can't have a 2nd beer, as they fire up the bong again.

#2. Australia is a BIG place, and it is not heavily populated, so there are a lot of people driving great distances at a time. "Driver Reviver" stations are set up to encourage drivers to stop on the side of the road, have a chocolate bar and coffee (free of charge!) so they can stay awake. You see signs everywhere that say "Stop, Revive, Survive" and "Take a break every 2 hours" etc. The reason for this is that over 30% of all road deaths in Australia are related to Fatigue, while less than 26% are related to Drink Driving. This quote comes from the Austrlaian Gov Webs site:

"A driver who gets behind the wheel after 17 hours without sleep is impaired to the same extent as if driving with a blood alcohol content of 0.05."

So it's legal to drive tired and be more likely Kill more people than a drunk driver.... There is no penalty or roadside test for Fatigue, but it's MUCH more likely to kill someone on the road.

I would propose a roadside test that actually tests your reaction time and alertness, rather than the Dope, BAC,etc. At the end of the day, it's not the chemical you have ingested that is the problem, it's the effect it has on your ability to drive. I would be willing to bet there are a LOT of old people on the road that are a lot more dangerous than I am with a BAC of .05%.

For some reason, it's legal to be stoned, tired, stupid, old or anything else that impairs your ability to drive, but not to have a BAC over a certain number (keeping in mind that people with a tolerance are most likely not impaired in any way at that level)

OK, that rant is over. Why do I hate the RBT so much? 6-7 years ago, I was driving back from a friend's house. I had been there for 4 hours and had 2 bottles of beer. I rolled up to an RBT in my wife's car. I passed the test without a worry, but while in the little roadside revenue generator, one of the hard working officer's checked the registration sticker on the car. My wife had the new sticker in her handbag, but had not applied it to the windscreen, or asked me to, so it was not displayed.

My wife was at home... I had no proof the registration was paid, I got booked. I not only got booked for no registration ($450), but also for no insurance ($450). In australia, if your car is not registered, your insurance is not valid, so even though you DO have insurance, it is not valid on an unregistered car. To add insult to injury, after getting $900 worth of tickets, the car had to be left on the side of the road, as it could not be driven unregistered. I walked 2.5 miles home, got the sticker and walked back, put the sticker on and drove home.

So that's Why i hate RBT's They focus on a "Problem" that is smaller than sleepy drivers, and they inconvenience everyone on the road.

Do I want them to stop? No, not really, I do feel safer on the roads that i know are a lot freer of drunk drivers. Sometimes we have to give in a little bit on the civil liberties to live in a better, safer place I guess

The problem with giving in on civil liberties in order to 'feel' safer is once you give in on one, they expect you to give in on the next...like guns...oh, I think you already know about that one living in Australia and all.

As far as the US, how many liberties do we give in on before we just change the name to Australia, or even Nazi Germany.

I'm not raggin' on your country, I just believe in mine, and don't want it to turn into yours.

 

[MikeFlynn74]

Pete

CLIFF NOTES, MAN!

 

[PeteOz77]

The problem with giving in on civil liberties in order to 'feel' safer is once you give in on one, they expect you to give in on the next...like guns...oh, I think you already know about that one living in Australia and all.

As far as the US, how many liberties do we give in on before we just change the name to Australia, or even Nazi Germany.

I'm not raggin' on your country, I just believe in mine, and don't want it to turn into yours.

I agree 100% on the civil liberties front mate, and I hate to see them taken away just as much as you do. America has had a LOT of their rights and liberties taken from them under the current Bush regime (Yes, I know Clinton took away the assaults rifles) most importantly, the right to PRIVACY and the right to freedom from prosecution without just cause.

I would support both of those rights being taken away if I thought that either of them would actually protect honest citizens from Terrorism (not "Terror" as busch calls it) but I see it as more of a way to make citizens do exactly what the Gov wants them to do, not what they want to , and have a RIGHT to do.

Not ragging on your country either mate, just love mine and don't want it to turn into yours

Oh, BTW, I am actually a US citizen as well as an Aussie. I spent the first 30 years of my life there, and the last 10 here. Both have their good and bad points, and I love them both. THe biggest problem is that every day, both countries become more and more alike.. and in bad ways, not good ways.

Nuff Said, let's have a home brew and relax

Well actually I can't, my first batch isn't ready yet

 

[PeteOz77]

Pete

CLIFF NOTES, MAN!

Sorry mate, I'll try to keep it down to 1000 words or less next time.

Just kidding

 

[MikeFlynn74]

heh no worries-

Id love to visit/live in Aussi land but I really thing presonal freedoms and preventing the gov from making sure you are "safe" are not mutually exclusive.

 

[shafferpilot]

Thanks to the both of you for chiming in. I know we all can learn from other's experiences. The different points of view in this thread alone will stick with me for a long long time. I hope everyone else feels the same way too.

 

[Logan]

2 cents:

The BAC of your blood isn't the root of the problem. Social norms are. Drunk driving is a misdemeanor in my state. You can get it deferred and dropped off your record the first offense. This is the same type of crime as pissing on the sidewalk. Society does not want tough drunk driving laws. Society wants to feel safe with check points and misdemeanors. Until people actually start caring about punishing drunk drivers then this is the type of laws we will have.

Want to stop drunk driving? Mandatory 2 month prison sentence, mandatory 1 year suspended license. Mandatory 5 years with "I'm a drunk driver" license plate.

Punish the criminals not everyone.

 

[Hopleaf]

A drunk driver slammed into my grandfather's car while he was in an intersection and his body flew about 40 feet before he died. So thumbs up buddy, good job "beating the system"!

 

[Logan]

A drunk driver slammed into my grandfather's car while he was in an intersection and his body flew about 40 feet before he died. So thumbs up buddy, good job "beating the system"!

First of all, sorry to hear about your grandfather. However, in the post he stated he was not drunk - but was just upset over the whole theory of checkpoints.

 

[sirsloop]

I have a real problem with police running road blocks like that. Its intimidating, bad PR, and borderline harassment. I drive a ex-cop car that looks like, well, exactly like a cop car as a daily driver and I can assure you that the police have NO problems finding people to pull over. I see so many dumb ass drunk knuckleheads driving around its silly. They run them to scare the general law abiding citizens Now I'm all for stopping drunk drivers but I don't want to give up my freedom to accomplish that.

1776: Give me freedom or give me death.
2008: Give up your freedom or you'll die.

Oh, and yes a very close friend of mine was hit by a drunk driver and she was hurt badly. I still don't think its worth our freedom. I roll through road blocks with my window up. f-em... they need probable cause.

 

[Hopleaf]

Obviously I'm biased to the subject but the situation, for me, boils down to this: Be a responsible adult and don't f*cking drink and drive. Period.

 

[sirsloop]

has nothin to do with cops terrorizing people

If there was a huge problem with people growing pot in their houses, would you allow police to go door to door searching homes looking for it??? Its the same thing, except the home is on wheels.

 

[HenryHill]

I am so proud of some of you and hang my head at others-where emotion runs rampant, logic is silenced.

Complacency of civil rights abuses breeds tyranny- a much bigger problem than they sought to 'cure'.

Not minding a little 'inconvenience' is a very slippery slope.

My cat died from a free sample packet of gravy and beef in a bag of dry cat food.
But where is the indignation of my government to randomly test my or my pets food? But have a toddy at dinner with the wife on a night out-NOW THERE'S A PROBLEM! We should arrest you put you in jail, fine you, make you take classes, force you to random tests, take your license to drive to work for 6 months, and publish your bad name in the local paper. You louse!

I have no sympathy for illegal search and seizure, or lack of suspicion stops, no matter what the underlying reason is.

You give up YOUR rights, I'll keep mine, thank-you. I'll bear arms to keep mine.

~HH ashamed of some of his compatriots~

 

[PeteOz77]

Obviously I'm biased to the subject but the situation, for me, boils down to this: Be a responsible adult and don't f*cking drink and drive. Period.

Let's sshorten that statement to it's most base element "Be a responsible adult"

If that were always the case, not only would everyone not drink and drive, but there would be no road rage, or any OTHER of the multitude of irresponsible actions that people seem to insist on partaking in. I'm not implying the drunk driving isn't an issue, but it's not the biggest issue... it's just made out to be a big deal, while other issues that kill a LOT more people are ignored.

 

[sirsloop]

want to get me in an argument... agree with no-knock raids...

 

[Logan]

want to get me in an argument... agree with no-knock raids...

Being the pinnacle of law enforcement wisdom that they are?!!?

 

[MikeFlynn74]

Cops see DUIs as a huge revenue scheme. Therefore it will only get worse. People who run MADD would ban all alcohol if they could.

Since the DUI BAC has been lowered from .1 to .08 there has been no decrease in Alcohol related fatalities, but an increase in revenue for the cops. So its a win for the cops.
Also breathalysers have been proven to be up to 25% off in either direction from actual BAC.

DUI checkpoints are the equivelant of papers checkpoints.

I do agree that penalties for true DUIs should be stiffer, but the money aspect is the only thing that matters to cops. Cut the Fine to $500, mandatory jail time, loss of driving privelages would be more effective.

 

[Logan]

Cops see DUIs as a huge revenue scheme. Therefore it will only get worse. People who run MADD would ban all alcohol if they could.

Since the DUI BAC has been lowered from .1 to .08 there has been no decrease in Alcohol related fatalities, but an increase in revenue for the cops. So its a win for the cops.
Also breathalysers have been proven to be up to 25% off in either direction from actual BAC.

DUI checkpoints are the equivelant of papers checkpoints.

I do agree that penalties for true DUIs should be stiffer, but the money aspect is the only thing that matters to cops. Cut the Fine to $500, mandatory jail time, loss of driving privelages would be more effective.

In my opinion a system where the act of enforcing the law puts money into the same bank account as the one that pays the people doing it isn't the most ideal system in the world. However, with our government taking out a ever growing loan on future generations I don't see that system changing in our life.

 

[Hopleaf]

For the record, I'm not advocating police stops in any way, it's bull****. It's all bull****. In fact, the guy who killed my grandfather.. nothing of any real consequence happened to him.. (of course this was a number of years ago).

I suppose my point essentially that since it's all bull**** there is nothing else you can do but focus on your own personal responsibility. Actions have consequences. The end.

I'm all for "freedom over security" but too often it's used (imho) as an excuse to be an ****** (But no one likes talking about that second part).

Oh well, back to brewing