Dry hopping at the beginning of primary fermentation

[EkieEgan]

So..years ago when I was a very active brewer, I used to throw hops in my carboy at the start of fermentation. I got discussing it with the owner of my LHBS and he said it's a waste of hops...the CO2 ends up gassing off the aromas. The funny thing is, when I brewed my American brown or an APA or IPA, I always hopped this way with excellent results. I just read this article as I was curious why he would say that, as if I was imaging the excellent results I had had. http://learn.kegerator.com/dry-hopping/ Part of the article mentions this...

Dry Hopping during Primary
Most homebrewers’ first reaction to this is that it is not as efficient as dry-hopping in secondary. The theory is that dry-hopping in primary allows carbon dioxide bubbles to carry off the aroma compounds from the beer. The truth is that, while hopping in primary does change the aroma profile, the true mechanism for why that happens is not yet completely understood. The aroma compounds from hops are contained in the hop oils, which are not volatile enough to be carried off by CO2 bubbles. The only reason they dissipate in the boil is because they are, well, boiled. This process is being experimented with some at the homebrew and commercial brewing levels, but has not yet caught on in full. The anecdotal evidence seems to point to this method changing the aroma compounds contributed, but does not necessarily reduce them.

I never had any issues hopping in this way. Does anyone else use this method?

 

[Anyhowe]

I found this interesting relating to hop additions. . http://brulosophy.com/category/exbeeriments/

 

[ArkotRamathorn]

I'd be very interested in seeing an xbmt done on this. The traditional mantra is it will blow off aromas, but hop aroma is more complex than we really know.

I would have two main issues I think outside of the (apparent) CO2 blow off. First even though hops are relatively sanitary and bugs don't like to live on surface of the hops, there can be dust and such that could stick to the hops(primary word I am using there is "could"). Throw that into primary ferment with the yeast and you have a nice little petri dish to give a comfortable growing period for any bacteria that stuck to the hops (probably not an issue if you open individual 1oz packages right then and there, but if you measure out of bulk bag that could be unnerving). The warmer ale ferment temps if you are making ale, and the (relatively) higher pre-ferment pH seem a dangerous thing to me. I wish I could find the thread but theres been several where folks tried to place a single hop pellet into bottles on bottling day and the bottles started to explode so they're not "sterile" at best they are relatively "sanitary".

Dry hopping post ferment gives you a chemical advantage since the pH is lower and there is alcohol now, both make it an unfriendly environment for bacteria. Also alcohol in general is *fantastic* at extracting and carrying flavors and aromas so by dry hopping post ferment should (in theory) give better extraction of the hop oils/flavors/aromas.

A vigorous ferment I can see giving the advantage of heavily mixing the hops and oils into solution, so you know then that the flavor is really well mixed.

You can't really blame anyone for suggesting that the CO2 carries off aroma. Pour a completely flat beer into glass, then in the same shaped glass pour the same beer that's been carbonated and give them a sniff. Which beer has a more powerful aroma? It's definitely going to be the carbonated beer.

Edit: I'd bet money that if Brulosophy did this they wouldn't find a statistically significant different between the two beers. I would be more interested in the post-triangle results to see if the people who got the triangle correct which beer they preferred.

 

[EkieEgan]

Interesting article Anyhowe, especially when you take into account what the hops look like after adding to a warm, post fermented beer. The hops seem to be greener and much more broken up?

I think the reason I always hopped in the primary after intial fermentation was to allow the rigorous fermentation to knock the hops around, releasing the oils more efficiently, but I also never gave sanitation a second thought. Maybe it's because I never had issues the first time I did this? If I had a spoiled batch, I probably wouldn't have done it again or at least thought twice?
ArkotRamathorn...I fully appreciate your thoughts on this. It makes perfect sense, especially opening up single, nitrogen flushed 1 ounce packs. I have done this, but only when the hop I needed was in these packages. More often than not, I weighed them from the pound package and dumped them in. I have an APA fermenting now and yesterday added one ounce each of simcoe and crystal. The room they are in smells awesome as you can imagine haha! BUT I am not all that worried about losing aroma. Perhaps my method isn't as efficient? but knock on wood, I have never noticed a negative impact on the beer. I will post again once it is drinkable. Funny thing is, I never wanted to hop in the secondary because I use glass and getting the hops out afterwards seemed like a pain. Sanitizing a bag and filtering through that also seemed like an opportunity to add oxygen and or contaminents. Maybe we will get some more comments on this, but I am pretty sure no one knows for sure? The articles didn't seem to know either

Thanks for your feedbacks!!

 

[joshesmusica]

I mean there are plenty of people doing hopstands in the anticipation that it's going to add huge amounts of flavor and aroma. Which aren't carried off by the primary fermentation. Also, there are people doing hopstands below the pasteurization point with no issues with infections. For anything hop-forward, I say anything goes after the 5-minute mark of the boil. Might as well do them all!

 

[squaremile]

I'm really curious about this as well. Gonna try this weekend, planning to do a mash hop, hopstand, start of primary hop, and traditional dry hop additions.

 

[fillhumpfree]

I have done this multiple times with great results. Also Trillium who IMO is making some of the best hoppy beers in the world uses this practice in their double dry hopped beers. First dry hop during peak fermentation, second dry hop closer to bottling.

 

[lilbova3]

I have done this multiple times with great results. Also Trillium who IMO is making some of the best hoppy beers in the world uses this practice in their double dry hopped beers. First dry hop during peak fermentation, second dry hop closer to bottling.

Would you recommend a transfer after the first dry hop or is it ok to leave it all in the primary?

For instance, I'd love to try this but leave many beers in primary for 2+ weeks. Could I still add my first addition dry hops towards the middle/end of fermentation, leave everything in the carboy for another week, then add a second dry hop? And not worry about vegetal or grassy flavors and aromas? I don't have the ability to purge with CO2 so would prefer to leave it all in if I can get away with it. And leave it long enough for the yeast to clean up.

 

[fillhumpfree]

Would you recommend a transfer after the first dry hop or is it ok to leave it all in the primary?

For instance, I'd love to try this but leave many beers in primary for 2+ weeks. Could I still add my first addition dry hops towards the middle/end of fermentation, leave everything in the carboy for another week, then add a second dry hop? And not worry about vegetal or grassy flavors and aromas? I don't have the ability to purge with CO2 so would prefer to leave it all in if I can get away with it. And leave it long enough for the yeast to clean up.

I typically rack to secondary, I don't like to leave dry hop additions in my beers for more than seven days. I also typically go from grain to glass in about two to three weeks with my hoppy beers.

 

[lilbova3]

Have an APA fermenting away with a low OG (1.051). It's day four of fermentation and the krausen is starting to fall so I threw my dry hops in. I didn't test the gravity. I'm just winging it and assuming it's pretty darn close to FG. Looking forward to the results.

 

[squaremile]

My first beer where I did a dry hop at the same time as pitching just carbed. The beer had hop additions at a whole variety of steps so it's impossible to know what that did separately, but the beer is INTENSE with hop flavor and bitterness even despite doing it as a no boil beer. The aroma is also pretty unique, so that may have something to do with it. My next one with the same process will be carbed tomorrow.

 

[deepbluegroove]

Here is my usual IPA / APA Fermentation / D-Rest / Dry Hop Schedule:

9 days primary fermentation 66 F
4 days D-Rest / Dry Hop 70 F
2 days Cold Crash 36 F
Keg. Enjoy.

I sometime check the FG at end of 9 days to ensure I have reached FG I expect.
These days may vary as I don't always have time to keg right away.

 

[slym2none]

I am currently using a technique where I wait for fermentation to end, then add a small amount of sugar with my dry-hops to induce a very small secondary fermentation. The first beer I used it on, it was kind of amazing how hoppy it was, but I can't say for sure it was because of this technique. I also used whole-cone hops for the first time, plus I "upped my hoppy beer game" by using more hops than I ever have before.

Either way, it surely didn't hurt my beer, so I am going to keep doing it. FTR - I used sugar syrup (made with a better than 2:1 sugar to water ratio) right before dropping the hops in, 20mL carefully squirted in using a syringe.

 

[joshesmusica]

I am currently using a technique where I wait for fermentation to end, then add a small amount of sugar with my dry-hops to induce a very small secondary fermentation. The first beer I used it on, it was kind of amazing how hoppy it was, but I can't say for sure it was because of this technique. I also used whole-cone hops for the first time, plus I "upped my hoppy beer game" by using more hops than I ever have before.

Either way, it surely didn't hurt my beer, so I am going to keep doing it. FTR - I used sugar syrup (made with a better than 2:1 sugar to water ratio) right before dropping the hops in, 20mL carefully squirted in using a syringe.

I only use buckets, so if I need to rack the beer off of the yeast in order to save the yeast before I throw a whole bunch of crap in there, I always add 100-150 grams of sugar. Bout to do that with a Bo Pils that's fermenting because I want to save the yeast, but I want this one to be super clear, so I'm gonna try putting in gelatin in two additions. Just to see what happens.

 

[tgmartin000]

The mad fermentationist had a post on this.
http://www.themadfermentationist.com/2015/10/softer-juicier-and-uglier-apa.html?m=1

 

[joshesmusica]

Interesting. I had a very clear pale ale come out last summer when we attempted this method. Then again, it sat in the kegs for about 2 months before the wedding we were providing the beer for. That was with a 2 weeks fermentation.

I have a pale ale that is in the hop steep phase right now. I randomly decided to brew three different versions in one go. With the only difference being the dry hops. In the boil it's all cascade. Then I'll dry hop one with cascade, one with amarillo, and one with citra. They're only 5L batches, so it's not like I'm some champion brewer. But I decided yesterday that I was going to attempt to put half the amount of the dry hops in today (in about 15 mins), and the rest in as normal. Should be interesting, at least.

 

[kyleetrotter]

Do you guys rack to a secondary after fermentation is done in order to get the wort off the yeast bed? Then dry hop and cold crash in that carboy?

Or just use your primary fermenter, wait till it's done fermenting and open it up and dry hop it and seal it back up for a few days then cold crash?

 

[joshesmusica]

Depends on if I want to harvest the yeast and have it be as clean as possible and how much I'm dry hopping. Most of the time, I just do the latter.

 

[WBCo]

In my IPAs I use about all the hopping techniques known to brewers. I use a small 5 or 10 min addition, whirlpool hops at flameout, whirlpool hops under 170* or so, FFH (First Fermentor Hop) and dry hop. The results are some of the most well rounded, complex & intense hops flavors and aromas I've experienced, and I've had some of the most well regarded hoppy beers around. I vacation in Vermont at least once a winter. Once I start kegging I'm sure I'll add keg hops to the list as well.

I don't leave my hoppy beers in a fermentor for long. 14 days at the longest usually, so I do everything right in primary and rack off of the enormous amount of trub in the bottom of my fermentor.

 

[Malty_Dog]

I believe Firestone Walker also adds hops during active primary fermentation, at least for Union Jack and Wookey Jack. Fairly recent BYO featured them. I'll be making one of those brews in the coming months and will be interested to see what the results are.

 

[EkieEgan]

Do you guys rack to a secondary after fermentation is done in order to get the wort off the yeast bed? Then dry hop and cold crash in that carboy?

Or just use your primary fermenter, wait till it's done fermenting and open it up and dry hop it and seal it back up for a few days then cold crash?

My method has always been the same and simple. I wait for fermentation to get going nice and rocky, dry hop and let fermentation complete. Wait a day or 2, rack into secondary and cold crash. I harvest my yeast as well, but I always harvest after the secondary as there is mostly yeast in the bottom and I don't have to worry about trub. If I was going to use the same strain right away, I just pitched the freshly harvested yeast without even doing a starter. As long as you have a decent amount of yeast, it starts right up, but if I harvest and store for later, I make a starter. BTW, I used wyeast 1056 25 times once and entered a Brown in a fairly large local competition and scored a 46. I think that as long as your sanitation is consistant, your yeast won't suffer. It may morph slightly, but as long as it ferments clean?? Anyway, this is my method. I was just curious if others did this when I originally posted.

 

[joshesmusica]

My method has always been the same and simple. I wait for fermentation to get going nice and rocky, dry hop and let fermentation complete. Wait a day or 2, rack into secondary and cold crash. I harvest my yeast as well, but I always harvest after the secondary as there is mostly yeast in the bottom and I don't have to worry about trub. If I was going to use the same strain right away, I just pitched the freshly harvested yeast without even doing a starter. As long as you have a decent amount of yeast, it starts right up, but if I harvest and store for later, I make a starter. BTW, I used wyeast 1056 25 times once and entered a Brown in a fairly large local competition and scored a 46. I think that as long as your sanitation is consistant, your yeast won't suffer. It may morph slightly, but as long as it ferments clean?? Anyway, this is my method. I was just curious if others did this when I originally posted.

Wow, do you use gelatin or any other clearing agents when you cold crash? I'm surprised you're not putting extreme selective pressure on the yeasts when using them 25 times and harvesting from secondary - which would be the least flocculent yeast of the batch.

 

[EkieEgan]

No I don't use fining agents. At the time, I was filtering and kegging so I cold crashed at pretty low temps. I wasn't worried about needing yeast in suspension for bottling. Now I have to bottle due to moving and a lack of space for fridges, but my process will remain the same except for the cold crash temp...I am doing it at much higher temps now (mid 50's) at least until we move and I can go back to kegging. Ya know, I don't know why people worry so much about yeast. Breweries all over the world harvest and reuse LOTS of times before using new or if they are inclined, pick through their strain and begin a new batch from a few cells. I guess the only thing I am anal about is sanitation. Poor sanitation gets you bad beer. Funny thing is I chucked that 25 batch yeast before getting back the results back from the contest. Who knows, maybe I would have continued with it? As far as selective pressure? I may have been. You make a good point. All I know is that my yeast continued to be effective, clean and made tasty beer