rycov
Well-Known Member
not sure what ASTM is (ass to mouth?). i will tell you that i feel clean deep on the inside, i think i've reached a level of cleanliness that i haven't attained in a long while.
Don't fear the foam, don't fear the foam, don't fear the foam...
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maffewl
Well-Known Member
Lol... Appearance, Smell, Taste, Mouthfeel... or with Starsan, possibly your description is more fitting.
rycov
Well-Known Member
A: clear, mostly like water, but with foam if i jostle it around
S: very slightly chemicly lemony (artificial lemony)
T: see S
M: rather thin
Serving style: i scooped it out of a five gallon bucket with a solo cup
little to no head retention. the fact that its good for my beer is its only redeeming quality.
i give it a B+
S: very slightly chemicly lemony (artificial lemony)
T: see S
M: rather thin
Serving style: i scooped it out of a five gallon bucket with a solo cup
little to no head retention. the fact that its good for my beer is its only redeeming quality.
i give it a B+
I came to a realization after being (not so nicely) corrected by a member of another forum about the actual mechanism by which StarSan sanitizes. It's not the low pH that burns/melts/destroys organisms, apparently. StarSan is classified not as an "acid sanitizer," but as an "acid-anionic" sanitizer. So I Google "acid-anionic sanitizer," and from what I can gather what these do is facilitate some kind of anionic attraction that sort of pulls proteins out of the cell walls via some kind of ionic/anionic molecular charge*. This reaction is facilitated somehow by the low pH of the environment (likely because pH itself, and acidity/alkalinity, is a function of the concentration of certain ions).
Someone said earlier in the thread that it's considered a "weak acid." Well, a pH of 3 is certainly an acid, but it's absolutely not a melt-your-skin-quickly kind of acid. Stomach acid (ever had reflux?) has a pH of 1 to 2, and even that takes a while to erode the esophagus in chronic sufferers. Is vinegar safe? Lemon juice? pH of 2, more acidic than even a strong StarSan solution [http://www.epa.gov/acidrain/education/site_students/phscale.html]
*It's hard to find public info, at least, about what goes on here, but this page: http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/fs077 describes a similar class of sanitizers (QACs) as such:
"Since QACs are positively charged cations, their mode of action is related to their attraction to negatively charged materials such as bacterial proteins." Followed directly by the description of acid-anionic sanitizers as:
"Like QACs, acid-anionic sanitizers are surface- active sanitizers. These formulations include an inorganic acid plus a surfactant, and are often used for the dual function of acid rinse and sanitization.
Whereas QACs are positively charged, these sanitizers are negatively charged. Their activity is moderately affected by water hardness. Their low use pH, detergency, stability, low odor potential, and non-corrosiveness makes them highly desirable in some applications."
So in terms of acids, StarSan is pretty safe -- it doesn't sanitize by corroding things to death, there's some molecular stuff going on that's specifically harmful to single-cell type organisms, that's only facilitated or enabled by the low pH.
EDIT: I'm talking about a properly-diluted solution. Obviously the concentrate itself is pretty corrosive. I don't know what the pH would be before dilution.
Someone said earlier in the thread that it's considered a "weak acid." Well, a pH of 3 is certainly an acid, but it's absolutely not a melt-your-skin-quickly kind of acid. Stomach acid (ever had reflux?) has a pH of 1 to 2, and even that takes a while to erode the esophagus in chronic sufferers. Is vinegar safe? Lemon juice? pH of 2, more acidic than even a strong StarSan solution [http://www.epa.gov/acidrain/education/site_students/phscale.html]
*It's hard to find public info, at least, about what goes on here, but this page: http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/fs077 describes a similar class of sanitizers (QACs) as such:
"Since QACs are positively charged cations, their mode of action is related to their attraction to negatively charged materials such as bacterial proteins." Followed directly by the description of acid-anionic sanitizers as:
"Like QACs, acid-anionic sanitizers are surface- active sanitizers. These formulations include an inorganic acid plus a surfactant, and are often used for the dual function of acid rinse and sanitization.
Whereas QACs are positively charged, these sanitizers are negatively charged. Their activity is moderately affected by water hardness. Their low use pH, detergency, stability, low odor potential, and non-corrosiveness makes them highly desirable in some applications."
So in terms of acids, StarSan is pretty safe -- it doesn't sanitize by corroding things to death, there's some molecular stuff going on that's specifically harmful to single-cell type organisms, that's only facilitated or enabled by the low pH.
EDIT: I'm talking about a properly-diluted solution. Obviously the concentrate itself is pretty corrosive. I don't know what the pH would be before dilution.
rycov
Well-Known Member
its cool dude, no fancy words needed. i got this experiment on lock!
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rycov
Well-Known Member
haha. yeah i don't know. i'm drunk, i didn't have to work today so i've been drinking all day. i was just making **** up.
(about the ASTM thing, not about drinking it, i really did drink some)
(about the ASTM thing, not about drinking it, i really did drink some)
Mike_A
Well-Known Member
That was me. By a weak acid, I mean it's tendency to ionize the solution. This has almost nothing to do with pH in a water + starsan ONLY solution. The point is that if there is NOTHING there to neutralize the acidity of the starsan, it's very effective at lowering the pH. But it requires VERY little of a base to neutralize it. Even other acids (i.e. wort) introduced into the solution (if you want to consider the 1oz of starsan left at the bottom of a fermenter that) will negate the effects of the phosphoric acid. Acids vs. bases don't work on a 1:1 ratio of pH and volume (i.e. 1oz of a 3pH acid doesn't necessarily neutralize 1oz of a 11pH base, though they are equally far away from a "neutral" pH of 7.) Read http://www.chemguide.co.uk/physical/acidbaseeqia/acids.html for a better explanation.
And to reply to ettbeer - some more valid reasons I don't give a crap about rinsing my starsan foam: 1) it annoys people who can't get over the fact that it's not necessary to rinse. 2) I'm lazy, rinsing takes time. 3) some people may have to pay a lot for their water, in which case it's just using more water.
I would love to subject you to a blind taste-test - get the lightest, subtlest flavored beer you can find (would be interesting to try this with say a Bud Select 55), put a single drop of starsan into a 12oz bottle and taste it side by side with an "untainted" bottle. Let us know if you can taste the difference correctly more than half the time.
Hockeyhunter99
Well-Known Member
on the acid test, it should be around pH3. litmus (sp.) paper shows about 3-4 ph. but will not burn like an acid
I wouldn't drink it straight from the bottle it burned a white spot in my concrete garage floor that I can't remove. That being said I drank some on accident once. My air lock filled up with beer because of a vigorous fermentation, it was my first brew and I wanted to taste the beer so I just drank what was in the air lock. I forgot I had filled the airlock with a concentrated solution of water/star san. It was really sour and after I realized what I did I freaked out a little but it didn't hurt me much. I stttttttutter everyyy once in a wwwhhhile but other than than I'm pretty normal I think.
BrewKnurd
Well-Known Member
ettbeer said:
They may not say that on the bottle, but the head dude at five star has indeed said in interviews that you shouldn't rinse. Not just that you don't need to, that you shouldn't.
chrismcdaniel3128
Well-Known Member
And to reply to ettbeer - some more valid reasons I don't give a crap about rinsing my starsan foam: 1) it annoys people who can't get over the fact that it's not necessary to rinse. 2) I'm lazy, rinsing takes time. 3) some people may have to pay a lot for their water, in which case it's just using more water.
+1 on number 2 i was waiting to say it
I started with soap and bleach to clean and sanitize, on my first ten or so batches. Serious pain, and as previously said how do i know if the water i'm rinsing with is 100percent contaminant free? But i never had any problems, but got the star san, 100 times easier and i'm lazy too so the less work the better,
+1 on the spray bottle too.
+1 on number 2 i was waiting to say it
I started with soap and bleach to clean and sanitize, on my first ten or so batches. Serious pain, and as previously said how do i know if the water i'm rinsing with is 100percent contaminant free? But i never had any problems, but got the star san, 100 times easier and i'm lazy too so the less work the better,
+1 on the spray bottle too.
rycov
Well-Known Member
just a follow up on this. don't drink it! it turned me into a newt!
BrewKnurd
Well-Known Member
a newt?!?
rycov
Well-Known Member
well i got better
Hockeyhunter99
Well-Known Member
ok. and i thought monty python was a lost art. excellent work my friends
maffewl
Well-Known Member
well, we did do the nose...
MasterOfTheWellHung
Member
...And the hat, but she is a witch!
Not only do I use Starsan for my brewing, I keep a spray bottle in the kitchen for a multitude of other uses. SWMBO is a bit of a germaphobe so she likes to spray down the counter and clean baby toys/equipment with it. As an amateur aquarist I use it to clean fish tank siphons and quarantine tanks between uses. (I do not reuse that stuff but I will reuse brewing sanitizer.) Also good for spraying down cutting boards after cleanup from cutting meat. It does a good job of getting the slime off of pet dishes.
Not only do I use Starsan for my brewing, I keep a spray bottle in the kitchen for a multitude of other uses. SWMBO is a bit of a germaphobe so she likes to spray down the counter and clean baby toys/equipment with it. As an amateur aquarist I use it to clean fish tank siphons and quarantine tanks between uses. (I do not reuse that stuff but I will reuse brewing sanitizer.) Also good for spraying down cutting boards after cleanup from cutting meat. It does a good job of getting the slime off of pet dishes.
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