Doing my first step decoction mash today . . .

[sonvolt]

Wish me luck. After listening to the BN show (with John Palmer) from last weekend, I have been inspired to try a step decoction mash. I am doing a german pilsner.

9 lbs. Pilsner Malt
.5 lbs Cara-Pils
Mix of Tettnang, Hallertau, (maybe some Northern Brewers, too)

BTW, I found this page . . . seems to be a great source for us decoction nooooobs!

 

[AdIn]

Good luck! In my opinion decoction makes huge impact on taste of my beer. Here is one more site where I found useful info on how much grain to pool for decoction http://www.strandbrewers.org/techinfo.htm (part 2). Are you planning two steps?

 

[sonvolt]

I just finished adding the decoction back into my mash. All temps hit - dead on! That was easier than I thought.

Now, . . . we'll see how sparging goes.

 

[Baron von BeeGee]

Good job. What was your mash schedule?

 

[sonvolt]

145 degrees for 20 minutes - 156-158ish for 1 hour after a decoction.

I am not sure it worked very well. I only got about 66% efficiency, which is far lower than I am used to. My gravity is at 1.044-5 from 9lbs of pilsner malt and .5 lbs of carapils. I was expecting to hit 1.050.

 

[Baron von BeeGee]

Could be from a variety of factors. How long did you boil your decoction?

Also, your first rest, the beta rest, is what fixes the fermentability profile of your wort. The second rest (158-ish), the alpha rest, need only be allowed to proceed until a conversion test produces a negative result which is often in ~15-20 minutes.

Comprehensive information from the Kaiser in 3...2...1...

 

[sonvolt]

I boiled my decoction for 15 minutes . . . exactly. I guess that I should have let my first rest go a bit longer, huh? Also. . . my SRM is really light. I expected the decoction to give me a bit more color (maillard reaction, etc.), so I didn't tinker with the grain bill. The wort is really light in color.

Also, I think that I overhopped b/c I didn't anticipate a lower OG. I am not expecting too much from this one.

 

[Kaiser]

145 degrees for 20 minutes - 156-158ish for 1 hour after a decoction.

I am not sure it worked very well. I only got about 66% efficiency, which is far lower than I am used to. My gravity is at 1.044-5 from 9lbs of pilsner malt and .5 lbs of carapils. I was expecting to hit 1.050.

How did you sparge and did you check for conversion at the end of the last rest?

Kai

 

[Baron von BeeGee]

I wouldn't expect much darkening from a decoction that short...I do 15-20m decoctions with my Hefeweizens and it stays quite light. Even my Oktoberfest where I did 30-45m decoctions didn't darken quite as much as I anticipated.

 

[sonvolt]

How did you sparge and did you check for conversion at the end of the last rest?

Kai

Fly sparge - took over an hour. I went nice and slow. As for conversion check - nope, didn't. I guess I should have, eh?

 

[Kaiser]

Fly sparge - took over an hour. I went nice and slow. As for conversion check - nope, didn't. I guess I should have, eh?

Not converting your mash, given that the thermometer is off, is unlikely even with decoction. But it can be a cause.

How consistent is your fly sparging efficiency? Whith fly sparging it takes some skill to get the efficiency consistent due to the chances of chanelling.

Kai

 

[sonvolt]

I am not worried about my efficiency. When I use highly modified malts (I use Briess Pale Malt), I get nearly 80% efficiency with most batches. Sometimes I rush my sparge out of boredom, dropping my efficiency a couple points.

I guess that I had not considered how undermodified this Briess Pilsner malt is. As I look around at some popular pilsners, I see that Bitburger's Pilsner starts at 1.045 and finishes around 1.008 with 38 IBUS. I will be dead on this beer if I can get it to finish that low. I recently did a Vienna lager that finished that low, so I am feeling better about my beer.

As far as efficiency, I wonder if I should look at the numbers Promash uses for their Pilsner malt.

Hey, Kai! If I started a thread about malt analysis - numbers, etc. - , do you think we would have some interesting conversation about malts? After doing this batch, I looked at the numbers for Briess pilsner malt and compared them with the numbers for their pale malt. The S/T for the pale is 42, while the pilsner is 37.

Now, I am not sure what S/T is, but I have a feeling it has something to do with conversion factors, etc.

 

[Kaiser]

Now, I am not sure what S/T is, but I have a feeling it has something to do with conversion factors, etc.

This is the soluble to total nitrogen (protein) ratio. Also known as SNR (soluble nitrogen ratio) or Kolbach index. It gives you how much of the protein in the malt is already soluble. The higher the number, the more the malt has been converted. everything over 40 I would call well modified and everything over 45 is over modified.

If the number is below 38, Noonan suggests holding the protein rest at 50C (122F) to make sure you get enough FAN (free amino nitrogen) for the yeast. If the malt SNR is near 40, I'd hold the protein rest around 55F (133). A rest at this temp will not break down as many medium chained proteins as the rest at 50. This is important for better modified malts.

If the malt is even less modified, lets say 35% SNR, you may even start worrying about the beta glucan rest and are in need for decoction for other reasons that color and flavor.

Another indication of malt modification is the fine grind to coarse grind extract difference. For the fine grind extract the malt is ground to a flour and the potential extract is determined in the lab. Then the malt is ground to grits (as brewers do it) and the potential extract is determined. The less the malt is modified, the more the grinding to flour helps the extract, because the cell walls have not been broken down as well, and you will see a higher difference in the potential extracts. But don't grind your malt into flour just to get the efficiency up. Just to a beta clucan rest to pick up where malting left of.

Kai

 

[sonvolt]

um, yeah . . . I'm gonna have to read that a few times to get it!

I think that I will start a mash analysis thread - there are some other stats I would like to know about.

 

[sonvolt]

If the number is below 38, Noonan suggests holding the protein rest at 50C (122F) to make sure you get enough FAN (free amino nitrogen) for the yeast.

Well, the malt I was using is at 37, according to the Briess analysis. Further, I did not do a rest at that temp. But, it seems like your post makes a point that this rest will benefit yeast health rather than conversion. I have used this malt one other time - for a Vienna Lager - and the yeast was very healthy. I had a quick fermentation at around 56-59 degrees, and the FG reached 1.008.

Will such a rest at 122F help with conversion? I would think that the 145F rest will do more for increasing the fermentability of the wort, right.

Would any of these options provide an effective fix to my problem without getting into complex mash schedules?
1. Throw in an extra pound of base pilsner malt?
2. Replace one lb of pilsner malt with a pound of pale malt - to get some more enzymes active, etc.

If I could use one of these methods without ill-effect, I would be happy not getting too complex in terms of mash temps, etc.

 

[Baron von BeeGee]

I didn't realize you were using that Breiss malt (I have some myself to experiment with)...I definitely concur with the Kaiser (and really, you'd be an idiot not to in the first place!) that a protein rest is in order with that malt and this likely contributed to your lower efficiency. When I brew with mine I plan to dough in at room temp, infuse to acid rest range, protein rest range, and then decoct for beta, alpha, and mashout.

BTW, at this point if I were your professor I would say that New Lager Brewing by Noonan is required reading...you can click through from the HBT banner!

 

[sonvolt]

I didn't realize you were using that Breiss malt (I have some myself to experiment with)...I definitely concur with the Kaiser (and really, you'd be an idiot not to in the first place!) that a protein rest is in order with that malt and this likely contributed to your lower efficiency. When I brew with mine I plan to dough in at room temp, infuse to acid rest range, protein rest range, and then decoct for beta, alpha, and mashout.

BTW, at this point if I were your professor I would say that New Lager Brewing by Noonan is required reading...you can click through from the HBT banner!

I think that I'll read that book before doing any more brews with that malt. I have used 18 lbs of a 50 lb bag, so I have quite a bit left.

Do you recommend a better Pilsner malt?

 

[Baron von BeeGee]

Do you recommend a better Pilsner malt?

That's the only undermodified malt I know of that is readily available and I haven't tried it yet, so I'd stick with it. I got some Weyerman (I think) from the Kaiser which I've made good beer with, but it's fully modified which kind of defeated the purpose of my decoction addiction.

 

[Reverend JC]

Will this work for the Decoction mash?

I was planning on using a pump when i get my sculpture together and pumping the wort into a copper tube that is immersed in hot enough water to bring it (the wort) to the proper temp that will raise the temp of the grain to the next temp rest.

One it rolls through the tube in the hot water it is pumped into the mash tun.

Will this work like i think it will?

 

[Kaiser]

I heard that Durst Turbo Pils is a pilsner malt that is well enough modified for single infusion. I have also done single infusion mashes with Weyermann Pilsner malt and the beer came out just fine, a bit cloudy though. But I don't know if that was because I hurried the beer or because of the mash schedule. I have another batch going where I used Weyermann Pilsner malt with a single infusion and I will see if this will be cloudy as well.


Baron, thanks for the cudo's, but I have also written BS in the past. Especially in my earlier posts

Kai

 

[Biermann]

I've been carefully reading this thread, and now I've got, like, 238.3 questions going through my head right now. Most of them pertain to my next batch. . .

I was going to do a repeat (with tweaks) of my hefeweizen. The last time I used Weyermann pils malt and Weyermann wheat. . .This time around, I have all Briess malts, including Briess Pils.

So, from this, I'm planning a decoction mash on this. (I've decocted once, only by experiment).
The last time around, I did a double infusion with relative good success (my efficiency wasn't the best, but the beer turned out good).

I was also contemplating doing a pils from this malt as well.


Suggestions?

 

[sonvolt]

Will this work for the Decoction mash?

I was planning on using a pump when i get my sculpture together and pumping the wort into a copper tube that is immersed in hot enough water to bring it (the wort) to the proper temp that will raise the temp of the grain to the next temp rest.

One it rolls through the tube in the hot water it is pumped into the mash tun.

Will this work like i think it will?

From my understanding of decoction, the process you describe will not be a decoction. You will be doing a step mash; however, one of the things happening in decoction is a boiling of the grains. As I understand your process, you will be heating wort and returning it back to the mash. A decoction is completed by removing around 40% of the grains from the mash and boiling them for a long period (at least 15 minutes) before returning them to the mash.