Does size matter (bottles and priming)

[pdonnigan]

So lots of discussion about bottles priming at different speeds due to size. But, my problem is a little different. I want to use a 6 oz bottle to give a way samples of the cider I have been making. when is use a give amount of priming sugar the 12 oz bottle is fine and carbonates well. However, the same batch bottled in 6 oz bottles is hardly carbonated.

I have read that "Head space" makes a difference. A given amount of "primed liquid" will produce a given amount of CO2. and that CO2 will occupy the Head space first before it will be absorbed in solution. So my theory is that all the prime is going to the head space (which is the same across all sizes I bottle because i use a filling wand). and because the volume is so much smaller it has nothing left to Carbonate the Cider.

Question 1): Do you agree?

Question 2): Where can I find a Carbonation Calculator that takes Bottle size / Head space into account?

 

[RPh_Guy]

Fill the bottles higher, about 1/4" - 1/2" from the top.

Less headspace is better because it lowers the amount of oxygen in the bottles.

FYI, CO2 does not "occupy the headspace first". It is produced in the liquid.

 

[pdonnigan]

Thanks Guy,

Maybe I said that wrong. CO2 will not become "in suspension" until the bottle pressure rises (ie filling the head space). with a small amount Primed Cider there is not enough CO2 produced to start the suspension. I failed to mention the bottle has some pressure on it... just not much.

I appreciate your recommendation about filling the bottle more. But, why not just prime it a little harder? Advice?

Also could you recommend a way to make the filling wand add that 1/4 to 1/2" consistently?

And one more time just to be a pain, is there Carbonation Calculator that takes Bottle size / Head space into account? I'm sure AB does the math. Has anyone seen a formula?

 

[RPh_Guy]

It's possible that the priming sugar didn't fully ferment. You could measure s.g. to be sure.

Lowering the amount of headspace has the added benefit of reducing oxidation, protecting the flavor. Either way, you may adjust the amount of priming sugar to reach your desired level.

To get 1/4 - 1/2" headspace, fill the bottles normally, and then withdraw the wand but press the tip against the inside of the bottle at the top. Stop when it reaches the desired fullness.

 

[Chalkyt]

I have used various calculators but the best guide I have found is Jolicoeur table 15.3.

Among other things, this gives the SG drop required for a particular level of carbonation. i.e. if your FG is say 1.001 (I sometimes don't get down to 1.000 with SO4, WLP002, or WLP775) then you will want to add sugar, AJ or FAJC to bring your gravity up to something like 1.002-1.004 for Petillant carbonation or about 4-8.5 g/L (1 to 2 tsp per litre) before you bottle.

The advantage of this approach is that you can add the sugar dissolved in AJ to your secondary container or bottling bucket just before you bottle so after a bit of a stir the whole batch is the same. i.e you don't have to finesse the amount of sugar needed per bottle if your bottles are small, so it shouldn't matter what size bottles you use. I usually bottle using 333ml (about 11 fl oz) beer bottles and get consistent results. Generally I find that it takes 2-4 weeks to bottle carbonate.

For what it is worth, I recently went to a "ciderfest" and found that Perlant or slightly Petillant carbonation was best with the craft ciders, as strong carbonation tended to take over the taste.

 

[pdonnigan]

Thanks Chalkys,
I don't add sugar to the bottle, I add it to a bottling bucket first. Then bottle from there.

I can't find the "Jolicoeur table 15.3" you recommended. Is this on the site or on the web at large. could it have a different name?

 

[Maylar]

Thanks Chalkys,
I don't add sugar to the bottle, I add it to a bottling bucket first. Then bottle from there.

I can't find the "Jolicoeur table 15.3" you recommended. Is this on the site or on the web at large. could it have a different name?

It's in a book ... The New Cider Maker's Handbook.

 

[Blacksmith1]

Try this one

 

[Chalkyt]

I highly recommend that you buy Claude Jolicoeur's book (it is about $30). Santa got it for me because someone on HBT recommended it to me a couple of years ago and it has been invaluable. Apart from having lots of very useful information in its 310 pages, bits of it also make a good read about all things to do with Cider, such as choice of apples, acidity and pH, juice extraction, sweetening methods etc.. To give you an idea of some of the level of detail in the book...

Basically the table says that 1 vol of CO2 is about 2 g/L in solution which requires 2 g/L of fermentable sugar and this will result in an extra 0.001 SG which when fermented will result in 0.9 atm of pressure for Perlant (spritzig) carbonation. Phew, that's a mouthful!!! The table goes on to cover Petillant (beer type carbonation) and Sparkling (champagne type carbonation) as well.

As you can imagine, it is easier to get consistent results by bringing the bottling bucket up to whatever level of sugar you need for a given SG per bottle than by fiddling with small amounts in each bottle.

 

[Chalkyt]

It is morning here in Oz now (11.00am), so the brain is fully awake.

It just occurred to me that it might be worth mentioning that using SG as a guide to carbonation lets you use AJ or FAJC (sometimes plus a bit of sugar) to get to the bottling SG level that you want plus you are adding (or at least retaining) some apple notes. As mentioned above, this approach avoids fussing around with precise sugar measures as it takes a fair amount of sugar in a gallon to change the SG by much, so you can be a bit rough with the sugar without going too far.

I understand that the apple flavour (and sweetness) only really starts to get lost once the must ferments below 1.005 or so. I have certainly found that with yeasts that can struggle to get below 1.002 (such as WLP002, WLP775 and sometimes SO4) I don't end up with a tart, super dry cider before bottling, so just boosting the bottling SG by 0.002 or so works quite well assuming it all ends up back at 1.002. If it does continue down to 1.000 after bottling, it doesn't really matter, you just end up with a bit more fizz than you had planned and should still be below volcano or bottle bomb levels.

My FAJC can end up at around SG1.120. I get this by freezing some of the original juice then letting it partly thaw. The juice and sugar melts out first, leaving the water still in solid form (a bit like sucking on a flavoured iceblock).

One of the craft cider makers at Batlow (an apple growing area across the mountains from us) makes a "liqueur" ice cider using this approach.

Have fun!