Does more ferm sugars mean a higher FG?

[flars]

Which brand of DME did you use and what style? What was your fermentation temperature and did the fermentation temperature hold steady? How old was the yeast pitched?

In my opinion FG is a function of the fermentability of the wort and the yeast used not the amount of extract used. As long as the yeast can handle the ABV up to the finish of the fermentation the FG should not increase.

I have compared two beers I brew on a regular basis with the same yeast. An IPA and an American amber. Difference in the amount of extract is a few ounce shy of three pounds. Both of these beers consistently finish 0.001 at/or either side of 1.007.

 

[IslandLizard]

Are you sure about this? I think the starch is in supension and makes the beer cloudy, but I don't believe it is dissolved in the wort, and therefore doesn't raise the gravity.

I've never tested it, but my thought is that suspended starch adds density to the water.

 

[Stillraining]

Are you sure about this? I think the starch is in supension and makes the beer cloudy, but I don't believe it is dissolved in the wort, and therefore doesn't raise the gravity.

I'm not talking starches..I'm talking sugars which you will get by seeping those grains at 150 for 30min..there is some exchange and conversion going on however slight.

Bottom line, he should not fear his beer, or his process as it sounds sound... package it up and drink it..numbers are not always worth worrying about or that important.
Carry on.

 

[jd1984]

I'm not talking starches..I'm talking sugars which you will get by seeping those grains at 150 for 30min..there is some exchange and conversion going on however slight

When you talk steeping/mashing you are talking both starches and sugars. From what I have read, those flaked grains have almost no diastatic power and cannot convert their released starches into sugar. So, how does steeping them produce fermentable sugars?

 

[Stillraining]

Chew some..they are sweet naturally..you will be washing those natural sugars and starches out. Whats the exact amount?..I'm no scientist...enough said.

Preform a test ..Take 1 lb of those grains and mash/seep in 1.5 quarts water at 150 for 30 min..see what gives...we will all learn something.

Edit..I used the wrong terminology prior and mislead some people..Im not talking conversion I'm talking extraction of existing unfermentable sugars and starches...Unfermentable's is after all what your seeing with your precieved higher FG then you expected.

There are more types of sugars then I care to even know the names of, or how they interact..some are present in every food we consume rather they need conversion first to be turned with yeast into usable alcohols or not.
You Keep horses off pasture at certain times of the day in the spring due to high sugars that can cause foundering. Oats and wheat are no different.

Take my challenge above and prove me wrong.

 

[TripleC223]

When you talk steeping/mashing you are talking both starches and sugars. From what I have read, those flaked grains have almost no diastatic power and cannot convert their released starches into sugar. So, how does steeping them produce fermentable sugars?

One question I'm still fuzzy on as this topic has progressed (and thanks to everyone for chiming in so far):

When steeping grains (flaked wheat/oats in this case) that do not provide any fermentable sugars, does the rest of what those steeping grains produce contribute to gravity?

Even if they primarily contribute unfermentable sugars, wouldn't those unfermentables boost the OG and FG? It's just that those sugars would never ferment, so there would be a higher floor for your FG...right? If I hadn't steeped those grains, would my OG and FG have been .005 less in the absence of those unfermentables, or something along those lines?

 

[Dcpcooks]

It's my understanding that you need to mash wheat and oats with barley so those enzymes can convert the starch to sugars.
So if your steeping the wheat or oats in extract you are not converting starch to sugar and it should not provide any noticeable change to gravity. It is still a starch.

An easy way to test this would be to use a drop of iodine on a plate with some wort after the steeping process. It's been a while since I bothered with an iodine text but if I remember correctly the iodine will turn dark blue or purple in the presence of starch. Don't return the iodine sample to your beer, discard it.

 

[Calder]

One question I'm still fuzzy on as this topic has progressed (and thanks to everyone for chiming in so far):

When steeping grains (flaked wheat/oats in this case) that do not provide any fermentable sugars, does the rest of what those steeping grains produce contribute to gravity?

Even if they primarily contribute unfermentable sugars, wouldn't those unfermentables boost the OG and FG? It's just that those sugars would never ferment, so there would be a higher floor for your FG...right? If I hadn't steeped those grains, would my OG and FG have been .005 less in the absence of those unfermentables, or something along those lines?

From everything I have read, you will get no sugars, either fermentable or not.

And with the starch being in suspension (versus being dissolved), you will get no change in gravity.

 

[Stillraining]

From everything I have read, you will get no sugars, either fermentable or not.

And with the starch being in suspension (versus being dissolved), you will get no change in gravity.

Where have you been reading?

A hydrometer does not know what liquid it is in..rather that's sugar water , salt water, starch water or battery acid. We calibrate and interpret thoes calibration to our will and all are affected by dissolved solids, suspended solids , barometric pressures, temperature, viscosity and way more things I'm not even smart enough to even know about.
It is incorrect to think of starches as not being soluble they most certainly are, and will indeed affect your hydrometers reading big time.

Here is a picture of a hydrometer reading with your "not soluble but only suspended" starch claim, and its "non effect on SG", even if that was true, which it is not, the effect is dramatic.

This is 1/4 cup corn starch just stirred into 68 degree water for less then 30 seconds... Water is a very powerful solvent and proves your reading material or your interpretation of it is wrong.

Everything you put into your wort that stays to the end product is going to affect its SG. Even your hop oils.

 

[Hoppy2bmerry]

If someone already asked I missed it skimming thought the thread. Did OP account for the temperature of the wort/beer while taking hydrometer readings?

 

[Stillraining]

When you talk steeping/mashing you are talking both starches and sugars. From what I have read, those flaked grains have almost no diastatic power and cannot convert their released starches into sugar. So, how does steeping them produce fermentable sugars?

Yes I'm talking both. Both are present to some degree regardless of total or any conversion at all or not..both will be striped out and affect FG .

We are talking Unfermentables here after all...there need not be conversion to get unfermentables extracted..that's the whole point of using these grains..to impart a different charicator in your beer by their usage that yeast cant use up. And thus affecting FG

 

[TripleC223]

Just an update on this brew...after two weeks in the primary and four weeks conditioning in the bottle, it tastes fantastic. I couldn't have said the same in the first two weeks after bottling. The taste was originally WAY too sweet, and there was an overpowering flavor on the back end that reminded me of root beer. All of that has calmed down now.

It tastes slightly "thick," but I actually like it and will try to replicate that in the future. I figure that's due to either the unfermented sugars (FG was 1.025) or that I accidentally ended up with only 4.5 gallons in the fermenter. Either way, it definitely makes this more of a sipper than a guzzler.

The only issue is that there is very little head, and what is there dissipates quickly. The carbonation is fine, so I would probably change the steeping grains next time around. I used flaked wheat and flaked oats, so I would probably swap the oats for flaked barley.

Thanks to everyone for the input. This is my favorite batch of the three I've brewed so far.

 

[Stillraining]

I would go with a Dextrin malt like Caraplis..its wont affect the falvor like flaked barley will.