Does efficiency also mean quality?

[Salsgebom]

lately I've been getting really low efficiency (58-62%), so I've been shooting high and managed to hit the recipe target most of the time. I'm happy that I'm hitting my targets, but I wonder does my low efficiency still hold me back from making really, really good beer? Compensating for these numbers means using 15lbs of grain instead of 10lbs for the same recipe. More 2-row also decreases the ratio of specialty grains. This has got to add some unneeded flavors.

Any thoughts?
-Salsgebom-

 

[Brewsmith]

Lower efficiency doesn't mean lower quality, it just means you are not getting as much sugars out of the grain. When compensating for lower efficiency, you want to increase the amount of all of the grain the same percentage, not just the mase malt. Just adding more 2-row will get you the higher gravity, but the ratio of grain will be different. What kind of process are you using for the mash? Equipment, water amounts, temperatures etc.?

 

[Baron von BeeGee]

Exactly what MB said...whenever I get an AG recipe I check what the calculated efficiency was and then scale the entire grist to my expected efficiency.

 

[Kaiser]

Not necessarily, as the others already pointed out.

But if you are not getting into the upper 60s with your effiicency and you are actually using a lauter tun (as opposed to a colander) I recommend checking your system or procedure. Especially how well the grain is chrushed. There might be something there that is not as optimal as it should be, and this may impact the quality of the beer.

Kai

 

[Salsgebom]

Sorry its been a while, I was out for the weekend. Maybe you guys can help me figure out why I cant get over 60%. I'm a batch-sparger, using about 1.5qt/lb in the mash. I usually hit 152-155 degrees which fall to about 145 over 90 minutes. I reheat my kettle to 168 before recirculating and draining my first runoff. I then sparge with about 5 gallons at 175, bringing grainbed temps to 160 or so (last time I put it back on the burner to bring it to 168). After an hour, I collect my 2nd runoff and start the 90 minute boil. I stir frequently during the mash and sparge, doesnt seem to change anything.

I've used the mill at two homebrew shops and I've gotten cracked grains from multiple online sources, so I'm pretty sure thats not the issue. That should be enough info for now, looking forward to your thoughts!

-Salsgebom-

 

[Mindflux]

Scaling up all the malts can be a pain. Especially the specialty malts. You end up with oddball weights.

Just bump your base grains up, I say. Unless there is a HUGE jump in the weight I wouldn't concern myself with upping the specialty grains.

Just IMHO.

 

[cweston]

I'm a batch-sparger, [...snip...] After an hour, I collect my 2nd runoff and start the 90 minute boil.

I only know what I've read, but in batch sparging, there's no waiting between batches, correct? You run the tun dry on batch 1, then immediately go to batch 2.

 

[Salsgebom]

I run it dry, then immediately add sparge water and let it sit for an hour.

 

[Baron von BeeGee]

I run it dry, then immediately add sparge water and let it sit for an hour.

There's no need for this...you should have already converted the mash before draining the first time. You simply fill up the second batch, stir it in, let it sit for 5-10 minutes to allow the sugars to go into solution, and then drain it.

 

[Salsgebom]

There's no need for this...you should have already converted the mash before draining the first time. You simply fill up the second batch, stir it in, let it sit for 5-10 minutes to allow the sugars to go into solution, and then drain it.

sweet! good to know. I've always gone the extra mile with the sparge just in case it might up my eff.

 

[Mindflux]

I run it dry, then immediately add sparge water and let it sit for an hour.

Why? Any particular reasoning?

I Dough in, let my mash sit for an hour to 90 minutes and stir every now and then. Then I add my 190 degree water (2gallons usually) to get the grainbed into the 160s. Let that sit 10 mins, I then stir right before I start to recirc.

I then recirc until I get the husks out of my wort, and run that off. Then I add my 170 degree water, stir that and run it off. (This is the remaining volume of water.. usually 3.5 gallons or so).

Ultimately I try to make both runnings equal in volume. I usually dough in with 3 gallons, hit it wth another 2 gallons (makes for 4 gallons of runoff after I lose a gallon to grain). Then I run off the 3.5 gallon sparge.. making for my total volume post boil.

I get 70+ efficiency most the time, depending on the grain bill.


Water volumes are highly dependant on equipment and grain bill. So don't follow the measurements I use, figure yours out. But there's no reason to let that sparge water sit for an hour after you've ran your dough-in mash dry.

 

[Brewpastor]

At the risk of starting a whole thread that really will produce nothing much, is it really even possible to get the same efficiency from a batch sparge as you can from fly sparging? It seems batch is going to be less efficient just by nature, having to do with the reality of sugar in solution. Actually, it really does not matter in homebrewing, where we are using so little grain and making so much beer, the economics doesn't really make sense to woory a whole lot about a few degrees of extract. I think as long as you know what your system does and go from there you are OK.

Now making a beer purely from first runnings, now we are talking...

 

[Baron von BeeGee]

I have read articles on the web (and can't really vouch for their validity) that indicate that the efficiency of your sparging technique is largely dependent on your type of setup, and that batch may be more efficient in some cases (http://byo.com/mrwizard/1074.html). I've also seen articles stating exactly the opposite.

I did it both ways on my old tun with a stainless braid and got better efficiency batch sparging (I don't think this is surprising). I haven't tried fly on my new setup, but I have achieved 83% efficiency batch sparging.

To me it makes sense that batch would achieve more or less the same results as fly sparging...you're washing sugar into solution with water in either case. Just one way is a continuous process while the other is discrete.

In any case, I agree that the economics at home are completely different from a commercial setting, and for me, my time is worth a pound or two of grains.

 

[Mindflux]

At the risk of starting a whole thread that really will produce nothing much, is it really even possible to get the same efficiency from a batch sparge as you can from fly sparging?

There are quite a few experienced batch spargers that consistently get in the high 70 to mid 80 % efficiencies. So, in a word. Yes.

 

[Salsgebom]

its wierd to me. I use a converted keg and SS braid. My proceedure is virtually the same as yours, Mindflux. The minor differences shouldnt give me 56% instead of your high 70's. I know I can just use more grain, but it bothers me that I have no clue why I cant get more sugars. I think I need that BYO wizard to sit in on my brew session.

 

[Brewpastor]

There are quite a few experienced batch spargers that consistently get in the high 70 to mid 80 % efficiencies. So, in a word. Yes.

That is cool.

 

[Baron von BeeGee]

I really think it comes down to your crush. I never got a good crush from a HBS. Admittedly, I never adjusted the mill, either. But my LHBS and mail-order only got me mid to upper 60's. I can get over 80% with my lowly Corona on a good day.

 

[Kaiser]

I really think it comes down to your crush. I never got a good crush from a HBS. Admittedly, I never adjusted the mill, either. But my LHBS and mail-order only got me mid to upper 60's. I can get over 80% with my lowly Corona on a good day.

I'm going to the same LBHS as you and my efficiencies are in the mid to upper 70's (with batch sparging). Since I can only boil about 6gal, I get higher efficiencies for lower gravity beers.

But that doesn't really add any more information to solving the initial problem. Could there be a measurement error? (just asking)

Kai

 

[Salsgebom]

Where do you guys go? I got 62% on an APA recently and got the grains from American Brewmaster in Raleigh.

 

[Mindflux]

I get my grains from austinhomebrew (LHBS) but I crack them myself. My efficiency has gone up since I started doing that.

 

[Kaiser]

Where do you guys go? I got 62% on an APA recently and got the grains from American Brewmaster in Raleigh.

Yes, that's where I go to.

Are we talking about the same metric for efficiency here?

............(sugars gotten from grain)
efficiency = -------------------------- * 100 %
.............(extract potential of the grains used)

I'm asking because there is also another efficiency calculation that is more common in the German brewing literature:

.............(sugars gotten from grain)
efficiency = -------------------------- * 100 %
.............weight of grains used

I'm using the one shown first, as this is the one that is implemented in BeerSmith.

Kai

BTW, Salsgebom you should join us (the Raligh area members of this board) when we meet up the next time.

 

[Salsgebom]

I'm pretty sure I'm using the first as well. I'm going by the numbers in Promash, and setting recipes to 60% is the only way I can land close to my target gravity. I just did an arrogant bastard clone and hit about 56% so I added about 1/4lb DME to make up for it. I might start doing that every time.

I'd love to sit and talk beer sometime. I live in Boone but my family is in Raleigh and I'm there frequently. Let me know!

-Salsgebom-

 

[Kaiser]

I just did an arrogant bastard clone and hit about 56% so I added about 1/4lb DME to make up for it. I might start doing that every time.

<60% is what I got when I did partial mashes and sparged through a colander. I really don't know what could be the issue here. Next time you are at the HBS, let Mark know that you are getting a low efficiency and have him check your grind (just in case somebody messed with the mill).

I just don't know what else can go wrong with the efficiency if you batch sparge and do 3 or more sparges. The sugars can't be that stuck to the grains.

I'd love to sit and talk beer sometime. I live in Boone but my family is in Raleigh and I'm there frequently. Let me know!

Some of us (me probably not) plan to go to the Beer Festival in Raleigh, which is at the end of April. We also plan to hit a bar sometimes since we ran out of breweries to visit/tour.

Kai

 

[Baron von BeeGee]

I'm going to the same LBHS as you and my efficiencies are in the mid to upper 70's (with batch sparging). Since I can only boil about 6gal, I get higher efficiencies for lower gravity beers.

No ideas here...I'm using Promash to calculate efficiency and saw a huge jump when I started crushing my own. Walker indicated that sometimes clients adjust the crush and don't set it back, so perhaps it was setup improperly each time I crushed

 

[Steve973]

Salsgebom, I have results similar to yours, but I do a fly sparge, and after reading this thread I'm questioning the grind from my local store. We've done a couple of belgian beers lately, which obviously require a pretty hefty grain bill. Our efficiency is also in the mid-sixties, which is pretty disappointing, when we do everything to the letter of a textbook mash. Our homebrew store has an un-adjustable grain mill, so we can't even get them to grind it more finely, so we may look into getting our own (adjustable) mill. We even do stuff like adjust our water ph (with stabilizer) and monitor our temperature constantly with a pretty cool digital thermometer that fits in the mash tun even when it's closed (due to the wire fitting in one of the grooves of the lid). We get good attenuation results, but lower than expected efficiency. Well, if you overcome your dilemma, please let me know what you find. Thanks and good luck!

 

[Steve973]

Oh, one more thing i forgot to mention. When I do 1.5 qt/lb for a more attenuable result and a thinner mash, I have problems being able to sparge with the ideal amount of water, and i think that this affects my efficiency. Do you have this issue, as well?

 

[Salsgebom]

Oh, one more thing i forgot to mention. When I do 1.5 qt/lb for a more attenuable result and a thinner mash, I have problems being able to sparge with the ideal amount of water, and i think that this affects my efficiency. Do you have this issue, as well?

My efficiency has been pretty consistent between 58-62, but I'll take note on the next few batches to see if thats a factor for me. I just ordered the ingredients for a double IPA from austinhomebrew, I added in the comments box to give the grains a fine crush. I have an old corona mill my uncle gave me, I might try to rig it up and put a good portion of grain through it. I'm also doing a 100 minute boil and about 1.25qt/gallon mash so that I can get a big 2-phase sparge. I'll post my results.

 

[Eleusis]

I don't think anybody's mentioned water yet... do you guys have hard water? You might need to add some gypsum to get your pH down.