Does anyone WHIRLPOOL when transferring to secondary???

[grndslm]

I still don't get why the OP is advocating whirlpooling before transferring into secondary. It accomplishes absolutely nothing except potentially oxidizing the beer, and if anything it stirs up sediment that would otherwise have stayed in the primary.

*AFTER* transferring to secondary.

You never saw me use the word BEFORE. ev. ar.

I used the words "while" and "when", and these were the source of confusion, methinks. It made plenty of sense to me, since my previous thread was "do you aerate *after* transferring to secondary".... but aerate wasn't the proper word. Whirlpooling / Stirring do not necessarily mean "aerating".

EDIT: if a mod could change the thread title to "*after* transfer to secondary", that could probably end most of the angst in this thread.

 

[motobrewer]

Also, one other thought about why this interests me...

is that we've been losing a few beers somehow, recently... and we've been adding like a half gallon or so of boiled water directly to the primary in order to make up for it. Tipping the carboy around for a minute, without actually using somethin inside to actually STIR the liquid..... might mean that we didn't exactly have a homogenous solution to begin with???

fermentation will homogenize the solution.

 

[grndslm]

that's wrong.

which part??

you're telling me that beer happens thru spontaneous combustion?

 

[motobrewer]

which part??

you're telling me that beer happens thru spontaneous combustion?

um, the part i quoted - that you are seeing the "output", as you put it, of the yeast.

 

[weirdboy]

*AFTER* transferring to secondary.

You never saw me use the word BEFORE. ev. ar.

I used the words "while" and "when", and these were the source of confusion, methinks. It made plenty of sense to me, since my previous thread was "do you aerate *after* transferring to secondary".... but aerate wasn't the proper word. Whirlpooling / Stirring do not necessarily mean "aerating".

EDIT: if a mod could change the thread title to "*after* transfer to secondary", that could probably end most of the angst in this thread.

Still useless. Please see my previous post, as I added some more descriptions that might explain why it is completely useless.



If you think whirlpooling doesn't introduce oxygen, you should probably let all those brewers and microbiologists know they are wasting their money on stir plates.

 

[j1laskey]

fermentation will homogenize the solution.

With this being said, this thread can be locked.

 

[grndslm]

The purpose of the whirlpool post-boil is that it concentrates the sediment into the center of the vessel. The sediment doesn't automatically drop out when you whirlpool, though. You whirlpool, and then you WAIT, 20 minutes or so, until the sediment has formed a nice, neat cone in the center. Then you carefully rack the liquid from the kettle. The reason you want a cone in the center is because the dip tube in your boil kettle is on the edge of the kettle, so the cone in the center keeps sediment from going into the dip tube.

See the "cold break question" thread in the Brew Science forum. Proteins drop out due to temperature.

The sediment does automatically drop out regardless of whether or not I whirlpool. I understand the cone bit, but I'm really not going to go there right now.

um, the part i quoted - that you are seeing the "output", as you put it, of the yeast.

soo... the beer gets darker from spontaneous combustion, and not from the yeast???

Still useless. Please see my previous post, as I added some more descriptions that might explain why it is completely useless.

I missed the part where you proved whirlpooling was "completely useless". That would seem very difficult to prove a negative. You would likely have to have done it before yourself; then and only then would we have empirical evidence.

If you think whirlpooling doesn't introduce oxygen, you should probably let all those brewers and microbiologists know they are wasting their money on stir plates.

It looks to me like a stir plate introduces just as much oxygen as a racking cane creating a whirlpool.

 

[grndslm]

With this being said, this thread can be locked.

No, that wouldn't make any sense. There is a discussion going on here.

If you have more important things to do, then don't let us get in your way.

 

[Reno_eNVy]

soo... the beer gets darker from spontaneous combustion, and not from the yeast???

Can't tell if you're being rude or are just terribly dense.

Of course the apparent color of the beer changes color. When the yeast have reproduced to appropriate concentrations they will spread throughout the wort and make the wort look much much lighter. Then, once they drop out, the beer will get much darker.... and also much darker than what it will look like in a pint glass.

How about you take some advice from people who know what they are doing and not insist that you know the answer to the question you're asking.

 

[weirdboy]

I missed the part where you proved whirlpooling was "completely useless". That would seem very difficult to prove a negative. You would likely have to have done it before yourself; then and only then would we have empirical evidence.

*sigh* if you are really going to be this defensive, then let's use the scientific method.
State your hypothesis and predictions up front as to why whirlpooling will help your beer.

It looks to me like a stir plate introduces just as much oxygen as a racking cane creating a whirlpool.

And oxygen causes oxidation, which means off flavors in your beer. Also, maybe I'm not understanding your statement, but I don't get a whirlpool when I use my racking cane. Maybe you're doing something wrong.

 

[MalFet]

I missed the part where you proved whirlpooling was "completely useless". That would seem very difficult to prove a negative. You would likely have to have done it before yourself; then and only then would we have empirical evidence.

I whisper sweet nothings to my beer for four hours every night as it ferments. I also never change my underwear when I have a batch going, and I make sure that no magnets or capricorns are within 100 yards of me when I make starters. Most importantly, I pay a troop of Japanese monks to keep constant vigil over my beers as they carbonate in the bottle.

If you want to propose that there is a positive effect to whirlpooling your beer into secondary (beyond the well documented potential negative effects), let's see either a mechanism or some data.

You're right. Nobody has proven that it won't help. But, then again, there's no reason to suspect that it will.

 

[grndslm]

Can't tell if you're being rude or are just terribly dense.

Of course the apparent color of the beer changes color. When the yeast have reproduced to appropriate concentrations they will spread throughout the wort and make the wort look much much lighter. Then, once they drop out, the beer will get much darker.... and also much darker than what it will look like in a pint glass.

How about you take some advice from people who know what they are doing and not insist that you know the answer to the question you're asking.

Did you read the process we followed for that extract brew??? Boiling hops, cutting off burner, then adding all extract WITHOUT turning burner back on.

Have you ever done that? The brew was yellow. By the time the 10-day primary was up, it had changed to a light brown (still almost yellow). By the half-way point of the 3-week secondary, the beer was half the original light brown when it was transferred, while the other half was a "bloodier", "rustier" color. All of it is that bloody, rusty color now... although it started out as yellow as a manila envelope.

Soo.... are you doubting me?? Or have you never actually done this process before?

The distinction between different phases of fermentation was not easily visible to me with "caramelized extract" that was boiled for 60 minutes. It wasn't until the Light LME was all added *after* the boil that I was able to see these VERY distinct color changes.

*sigh* if you are really going to be this defensive, then let's use the scientific method.
State your hypothesis and predictions up front as to why whirlpooling will help your beer.

As soon as this thread fades into oblivion and I finish the book, Yeast... I will then be able to make my hypothesis.

And oxygen causes oxidation, which means off flavors in your beer. Also, maybe I'm not understanding your statement, but I don't get a whirlpool when I use my racking cane. Maybe you're doing something wrong.

Here's what we do when it's time to bottle....

(1) Start racking to bottling bucket
(2) At 25% to 33% full level, we then add the priming sugar.
(3) Continue racking to bottling bucket
(4) Take racking cane and dip it all the way down into the bucket.
(5) Swirl racking cane around inner portion of bucket, until vortex is achieved.

Similar to how this stir plate forms a vertex...


Again, since using this new "process", as opposed to my friend's "let the hose make a 'natural whirlpool'" process... we have 100% consistent bottled beer now. It's just that simple. With his method, there were always carbonation problems... whereas now, there are none!

EDIT: from that video, I have found my hypothesis.... creating a whirlpool facilitates an environment in which the yeast are GUARANTEED to dominate!

 

[JoeBronco]

I boiled the hops only, turned the burner off, then added the extract, and NOT turning the burner back on...

...but maybe swirling (without splashing) the yeast in secondary is just as good as swirling the yeast in primary??

First thing first... Yooper is by far the best person to ask any tech. question about brewing on this site. Heeding any advice from yooper will make you a better brewer.

Now... Am i the only one to catch the above statement? Only boiled hops and dumped extract into the "Hop water" and wondering why his beer wont clear? Am i the only one who thinks this guy is a troll?

To address your question.
1. You stir your yeast in a starter.
2. You slowly agitate the yeast in primary. NEVER stir and create a whirlpool, you WILL introduce oxygen and other particles that the yeast will have to fight off.
3. IF you transfer to secondary (really only needed if you dry hop, oak, add fruit or other ingredients to the beer) If you stir you WILL introduce oxygen and other particles that the yeast will not be able to fight off due to the higher abv and stress that they have already incurred.


Off subject, are you from Canada? Do you make yeast starters using rubber gloves and lotion? #crazycanuck

 

[motobrewer]

Off subject, are you from Canada? Do you make yeast starters using rubber gloves and lotion? #crazycanuck

hey! I made that reference already, but it got biermunched.

I get credit!!

 

[MalFet]

Again, since using this new "process", as opposed to my friend's "let the hose make a 'natural whirlpool'" process... we have 100% consistent bottled beer now. It's just that simple. With his method, there were always carbonation problems... whereas now, there are none!

Nobody is doubting that letting the beer whirlpool into the bottling bucket (thus mixing it with the priming solution) is a good idea. This is a well known, well discussed notion that even your buddy Palmer recommends. That's not what's at issue here.

 

[JoeBronco]

I sent this tread to Tasty to see what he thinks I wonder if he's going to laugh at the process or cry as there is BAD beer being made...

 

[weirdboy]

Gently stirring and waiting for 15-20 minutes will accomplish the same thing, carbontaion-wise (yes, I have personal experience over many batches), and it won't introduce as much oxygen into your beer.

Again, after fermentation has finished, you don't want to introduce oxygen into your beer. Having been brewing for only 6 weeks yet, you possibly haven't even run into the issue yet, but certainly for longer term storage this is an issue that commercial breweries spend millions of dollars trying to prevent. As Yooper said earlier, the off flavors start off subtle at first and then gradually get worse over time, until your beer tastes like sherry or cardboard.

 

[JoeBronco]

Gently stirring and waiting for 15-20 minutes will accomplish the same thing, carbontaion-wise (yes, I have personal experience over many batches), and it won't introduce as much oxygen into your beer.

Again, after fermentation has finished, you don't want to introduce oxygen into your beer. Having been brewing for only 6 weeks yet, you possibly haven't even run into the issue yet, but certainly for longer term storage this is an issue that commercial breweries spend millions of dollars trying to prevent. As Yooper said earlier, the off flavors start off subtle at first and then gradually get worse over time, until your beer tastes like sherry or cardboard.

I think the OP is all about changing the process that experts and the people that do this for a living have set as a standard. Reinventing the wheel and making it square and calling it innovation.

- Dont think "creating a vortex" is gently. Let the OP make his sherry beer and call it a day. Ferment around 100 degrees and make a Madeira beer if thats what floats your boat.

 

[Reno_eNVy]

Have you ever done that? The brew was yellow. By the time the 10-day primary was up, it had changed to a light brown (still almost yellow). By the half-way point of the 3-week secondary, the beer was half the original light brown when it was transferred, while the other half was a "bloodier", "rustier" color. All of it is that bloody, rusty color now... although it started out as yellow as a manila envelope.

Soo.... are you doubting me?? Or have you never actually done this process before?

The distinction between different phases of fermentation was not easily visible to me with "caramelized extract" that was boiled for 60 minutes. It wasn't until the Light LME was all added *after* the boil that I was able to see these VERY distinct color changes.

*sigh* Okay, you're right. All hail the omniscient newbie.


I'm voting for "he's trolling and someone should lock the thread."

 

[grndslm]

First thing first... Yooper is by far the best person to ask any tech. question about brewing. Heeding any advice from yooper will make you a better brewer.[/quote]I got the advice from her (Yooper *is* a she, right?)

Now... Am i the only one to catch the above statement? Only boiled hops and dumped extract into the "Hop water" and wondering why his beer wont clear? Am i the only one who thinks this guy is a troll?

Again.... I got this idea from Yooper. Search my posts. Yooper might have suggested to bring it back to a boil for at least a minute, but I didn't do that.... because it doesn't seem necessary. Just read my past posts, and you'll see where others claim to have done the same as me.

Where did you get the impression that I'm "wondering why my beer won't clear", tho??? It's doing what it needs to do. It's doing what it's always done before. It's just that I CAN SEE IT ALL CLEARLY this time!!!

To address your question.
1. You stir your yeast in a starter.
2. You slowly agitate the yeast in primary. NEVER stir and create a whirlpool, you WILL introduce oxygen and other particles that the yeast will have to fight off.
3. IF you transfer to secondary (really only needed if you dry hop, oak, add fruit or other ingredients to the beer) If you stir you WILL introduce oxygen and other particles that the yeast will not be able to fight off due to the higher abv and stress that they have already incurred.

1. you don't HAVE to, bu it provides a better environment for the yeast if you DO.
2. yeast are aerobic. During the first part of fermentation, they NEED oxygen. It is commonly recommended to add oxygen for the first 24-hrs. Even lagers must be drug out some time and rolled around on the floor to keep fermentation going.
3. we transfer to secondary for none of those reasons; we do it for clarity and for washing our yeast.

Nobody is doubting that letting the beer whirlpool into the bottling bucket (thus mixing it with the priming solution) is a good idea. This is a well known, well discussed notion that even your buddy Palmer recommends. That's not what's at issue here.

Well, my friend read Palmer's HTB, and he didn't catch that memo. Again, dozens of batches of beer he has not wanted to do it because of the words of Palmer. I can't help what Palmer did or did not write and what my friend did or did not read.

Gently stirring and waiting for 15-20 minutes will accomplish the same thing, carbontaion-wise (yes, I have personal experience over many batches), and it won't introduce as much oxygen into your beer.

Again, after fermentation has finished, you don't want to introduce oxygen into your beer. Having been brewing for only 6 weeks yet, you possibly haven't even run into the issue yet, but certainly for longer term storage this is an issue that commercial breweries spend millions of dollars trying to prevent. As Yooper said earlier, the off flavors start off subtle at first and then gradually get worse over time, until your beer tastes like sherry or cardboard.

I hear you. I will need more experimentation.

Everybody now seems to be in agreement that "gently stirring" in the bottling bucket is a good decision??

I just don't understand the need to wait for 15-20 minutes at this point. There is virtually no sediment in our beer by the time it gets to the bottling bucket, so there's no need to wait at this point.

 

[weirdboy]

Everybody now seems to be in agreement that "gently stirring" in the bottling bucket is a good decision??

I just don't understand the need to wait for 15-20 minutes at this point. There is virtually no sediment in our beer by the time it gets to the bottling bucket, so there's no need to wait at this point.

The reason you wait is because you are combining two solutions: your beer, and the priming sugar solution. This is a chemical process that takes a bit of time to become one homogenous solution of primed beer. The gentle stirring helps speed up the process (as does whirlpooling, I suppose), but just waiting a little bit will accomplish the same thing thanks to convection and Brownian motion.

 

[grndslm]

I think the OP is all about changing the process that experts and the people that do this for a living have set as a standard. Reinventing the wheel and making it square and calling it innovation.

- Dont think "creating a vortex" is gently. Let the OP make his sherry beer and call it a day. Ferment around 100 degrees and make a Madeira beer if thats what floats your boat.

JoeBronco, you are almost spot on. I am not about CHANGING the process, but merely UNDERSTANDING the process thru QUESTIONING and EXPERIMENTATION.

Just look thru my post history, "should I shake my bottles up?" "i just added all the extract AFTER the boil? did i make a mistake?", etcetera.

Things aren't quite as "clear cut" as the "experts" make them out to seem, and Yooper was actually on my side of most of these "outrageously preposterous questions that should never be asked".

I think that a stir plate creates a vortex, and stir plates create good environments for yeast (provided you have just removed the trub / sediment).

*sigh* Okay, you're right. All hail the omniscient newbie.


I'm voting for "he's trolling and someone should lock the thread."

OK... so, I was having a conversation with somebody else, describing the colors...

And then you hopped in...

Can't tell if you're being rude or are just terribly dense.

Of course the apparent color of the beer changes color. When the yeast have reproduced to appropriate concentrations they will spread throughout the wort and make the wort look much much lighter. Then, once they drop out, the beer will get much darker.... and also much darker than what it will look like in a pint glass.

How about you take some advice from people who know what they are doing and not insist that you know the answer to the question you're asking.

But now that I clarified for you the conversation that you weren't in, you have decided to ignore my questions altogether, label me a troll, and demand that the troll's thread be locked... ALL BECAUSE YOU CAN'T ANSWER MY QUESTIONS???

ONE MORE TIME!!!

Have you ever done that? The brew was yellow. By the time the 10-day primary was up, it had changed to a light brown (still almost yellow). By the half-way point of the 3-week secondary, the beer was half the original light brown when it was transferred, while the other half was a "bloodier", "rustier" color. All of it is that bloody, rusty color now... although it started out as yellow as a manila envelope.

Soo.... are you doubting me?? Or have you never actually done this process before?

The distinction between different phases of fermentation was not easily visible to me with "caramelized extract" that was boiled for 60 minutes. It wasn't until the Light LME was all added *after* the boil that I was able to see these VERY distinct color changes.

I'm going to bet that you, like 99.8% of the HBT users have NEVER done this before. Amirite?

 

[Reno_eNVy]

Again.... I got this idea from Yooper. Search my posts. Yooper might have suggested to bring it back to a boil for at least a minute, but I didn't do that.... because it doesn't seem necessary. Just read my past posts, and you'll see where others claim to have done the same as me.

Where did you get the impression that I'm "wondering why my beer won't clear", tho??? It's doing what it needs to do. It's doing what it's always done before. It's just that I CAN SEE IT ALL CLEARLY this time!!!

Boiling malt extract or wort causes proteins to coagulate and drop out of solution easily. This is called "hot break" and significantly helps with achieving clear beer.

yeast are aerobic.

Wrong

During the first part of fermentation, they NEED oxygen.

This is partially true. They need oxygen during reproduction, not fermentation. During fermentation oxygen is pushed out by CO2

It is commonly recommended to add oxygen for the first 24-hrs.

So very wrong.... well, right if you like cardboard beer. Common recommendation is 30 seconds to 1 minute.

Even lagers must be drug out some time and rolled around on the floor to keep fermentation going.

..... what?!

I hear you. I will need more experimentation.

No, you don't hear. When we say "It's been documented over and over and is and industry standard" and you hear "hmmm, maybe I should experiment and prove thousands of experts who spent tons of money on research wrong"

Everybody now seems to be in agreement that "gently stirring" in the bottling bucket is a good decision??

Um... yes.... either by whirlpooling slightly by angling your racking cane or from gently stirring with a spoon or something. Everybody is in full agreement there. You're not coming up with anything new. What we've been TRYING to say is whirlpooling in the secondary (not the bottling bucket... I'll say it again, NOT the bottling bucket) is pointless, a waste of time, and possibly deterimental.

I just don't understand the need to wait for 15-20 minutes at this point. There is virtually no sediment in our beer by the time it gets to the bottling bucket, so there's no need to wait at this point.

*sigh* Of course there is no sediment because you want to leave it behind in the secondary. He was saying you stir and then wait 15-20 minutes. It will keep stirring because (funny thing) liquid has mass and interia to keep it going.

 

[Reno_eNVy]

But now that I clarified for you the conversation that you weren't in, you have decided to ignore my questions altogether, label me a troll, and demand that the troll's thread be locked... ALL BECAUSE YOU CAN'T ANSWER MY QUESTIONS???

Well people have been trying to answer your questions (and by trying I mean at least 5 different people have actually answered it) but your thought process is obviously beyond our scope of undertstanding. You should probably seek advice from Mensa, then.

 

[JoeBronco]

Dont lock! Just move to Drunken Ramblings and Mindless Mumbling!

 

[IXVolt]

As the saying goes;
you can lead an ungulate to water, but can't make em drink.

 

[JoeBronco]

As the saying goes;
you can lead an ungulate to BEER, but can't make em drink.

Fixed

 

[IXVolt]

Fixed

Hah, thanks.

 

[Reno_eNVy]

Dont lock! Just move to Drunken Ramblings and Mindless Mumbling!

Yeah that seems more appropriate

 

[grndslm]

Boiling malt extract or wort causes proteins to coagulate and drop out of solution easily. This is called "hot break" and significantly helps with achieving clear beer.

Clarity comes from the yeast. The beer is very clear, it's only its initial color that was different and allowed us to see the distinct phases in fermentation.

Wrong

From Chris & Jamil's Yeast, pgs. 23 & 24:

"The uptake of oxygen happens rapidly, with the yeast usually depleting wort oxygen levels within 30 minutes of inoculation. In nature, yeast sitting on top of a pile of rotting fruit have lots of oxygen they can use to consume sugar. This is aerobic growth, which is the most effective way for an organism to get the greatest amount of energy out of a sugar molecule. However, there are times where oxygen is limited. Consuming sugar in an oxygen-free environment leads to anaerobic growth. Louis Pasteur coined the term "anaerobic fermentation" in the 1860s, to describe the ability of yeast to grow when oxygen deprived."

Sooo... technically, it is both aerobic and anaerobic, from my understanding...

This is partially true. They need oxygen during reproduction, not fermentation. During fermentation oxygen is pushed out by CO2

MMm... not qualified to dispute.

So very wrong.... well, right if you like cardboard beer. Common recommendation is 30 seconds to 1 minutes.

I have seen the 24-hr recommendation on this forum more often than I have seen any other recommendation about oxygen after pitching.

..... what?!

I have read that brewers will take lager carboys out and roll them on the ground to wake the yeast up.

No, you don't hear. When we say "It's been documented over and over and is and industry standard" and you hear "hmmm, maybe I should experiment and prove thousands of experts who spent tons of money on research wrong"

I don't hear you?? OK then! (do you guys not realize how you try to put words in my mouth in virtually every single post? all I'm doing is asking questions based on my understanding of a couple books and this forum. there is no other resource I have other than a couple books and this forum. I REPEAT --- ALL I AM DOING IS ASKING QUESTIONS BASED ON MY UNDERSTANDING OF A COUPLE BOOKS AND THIS FORUM.

Um... yes.... either by whirlpooling slightly by angling your racking cane or from gently stirring with a spoon or something. Everybody is in full agreement there. You're not coming up with anything new. What we've been TRYING to say is whirlpooling in the secondary (not the bottling bucket... I'll say it again, NOT the bottling bucket) is pointless, a waste of time, and possibly deterimental.

I hear you, but I believe otherwise. Perhaps I will come around to the dark side after my own experiments, but who knows. Maybe I'll be able to successfully bottle condition in mason jars, against the will of "all who know better". Just maybe. Maybe the extract after boil is the way to tastier brews? Maybe shaking bottles speeds up bottle conditioning? Maybe John Palmer is a follower and not somebody to follow? You just never can fully know something until you do it yourself.

*sigh* Of course there is no sediment because you want to leave it behind in the secondary. He was saying you stir and then wait 15-20 minutes. It will keep stirring because (funny thing) liquid and mass and interia to keep it going.

Right.... but again, the waiting provides no benefit, because the process I outlined works 100%.

Well people have been trying to answer your questions (and by trying I mean at least 5 different people have actually answered it) but your thought process is obviously beyond our scope of undertstanding. You should probably seek advice from Mensa, then.

I appreciate those who have taken the time to answer, but let me put it to you this way... the only real bit of persuasive evidence entered into this discussion is "experience", and maybe, just maybe my experience will lead to different results.

I think maybe one person admitted to stirring the secondary and noticing very minimal oxidation. One person hardly constitutes evidence, in my eyes.

Also, Reno.... You continued to dodge my questions about dumping in all the extract after flame out. Have you done it... yes or no?