Does a thick mash truly result in a maltier beer?

[Silver_Is_Money]

Guidelines and instructions from the not too distant past often indicated that (due specifically to the way in which malt enzymes respond to mash thickness) a thin mash (generally defined as at or above 1.5 Qts/Lb. with respect to the water to grist ratio) results in a thinner and dryer and not as richly malty beer by comparison to the maltiness that can be achieved via utilizing a thick mash (which is generally defined to be on the order of a ballpark 1.25 quarts/Lb. water to grist ratio).

With the recent trend toward no-sparge mashing, is this actually proving to be factual mashing advice?

A no-sparge water to grist ratio is likely to be more on the order of 2.75 Qts/Lb. (give or take). Nowhere near the ideal maltiness target of give/take 1.25 Qts./Lb.

 

[Dgallo]

Guidelines and instructions from the not too distant past often indicated that a thin mash (generally defined as above 1.5 Qts/Lb. with respect to the water to grist ratio) results in a thinner and dryer and not as richly malty beer by comparison to the maltiness that can be achieved via utilizing a thick mash (which is generally defined to be on the order of a ballpark 1.25 quarts/Lb. water to grist ratio).

With the recent trend toward no-sparge mashing, is this actually proving to be factual mashing advice?

A no-sparge water to grist ratio is likely to be more on the order of 2.75 Qts/Lb. (give or take). Nowhere near the ideal maltiness target of give/take 1.25 Qts./Lb.

I’ve always been under the impression that the mash thickness is an extraction and efficiency based thing and does not contribute to the dryness nor sweetness. I’ve always attributed this to my mash temp. Mashing at 146-150*f wil produce a beer that is on the dry side and 155+ with be sweeter with a bigger body. I always use 1.33 for my mash thickness.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

As an example, see it here, in paragraph 3. It actually implies a mash thicker than 1.25 Qts./Lb. is required if you intend to achieve the flavor perception of high maltiness.

http://www.howtobrew.com/section3/chapter14-6.html

 

[Dgallo]

As an example, see it here, in paragraph 3. It actually implies a mash thicker than 1.25 Qts./Lb. is required if you intend to achieve the flavor perception of high maltiness.

http://www.howtobrew.com/section3/chapter14-6.html

Bad link. Doesn’t open

 

[thehaze]

It's never been my experience. A bigger, fuller, maltier body can be achieved by mashing higher, think 155-158F and using some specialty malts ( also, some base malts can add a maltier/fuller mouthfeel to beers ), that will add some degree of unfermentable sugars, can contribute to a maltier, thicker mouthfeel/body. I believe ( feel free to correct me ) that a thicker mash will convert quicker than a thinner one. But that has nothing to do with how maltier a beer can be.

 

[Dgallo]

Grain bill is where brewing a malty beer starts. Then mash temps. If youre a LODO coldside brewer it’s grain billl, boiling off oxygen, then mash temp

 

[ScrewyBrewer]

If anything a thinner mash enhances conversion and improves wort quality because of the higher ratio of water to grain. Letting the mash absorb more proteins and sugars than a thicker mash. As others point out grain choice, hop schedules and mash temperature have more of an impact on malty flavors and mouthfeel.

 

[dmtaylor]

I believe water to grist ratio is irrelevant under normal circumstances less than 3 or 4 quarts per pound. I've used various ratios and haven't noticed a difference. However I haven't run any blind triangles. That's the only way to know with any confidence. Otherwise we're all just full of ****.

 

[MildAvers]

Considering the source of your quandary is "How To Brew" version 1.... I wish Palmer would remove that from the Internet.

It's really not that complex:

Less bittering = sweeter beer with more malt flavor
More bittering = less sweet, more bitter beer with less malt flavor

 

[kh54s10]

Considering the source of your quandary is "How To Brew" version 1.... I wish Palmer would remove that from the Internet.

It's really not that complex:

Less bittering = sweeter beer with more malt flavor
More bittering = less sweet, more bitter beer with less malt flavor

Not totally, bittering just masks some of the malt flavor. A bitter beer with malt flavor from proper selection of grain and higher mash temperatures will be plenty malty.

 

[MildAvers]

Not totally, bittering just masks some of the malt flavor.

Yup, that's what I said.

A bitter beer with malt flavor from proper selection of grain and higher mash temperatures will be plenty malty.

Yup, that's what I said.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

So I guess I can safely go back to no-sparge.

 

[kh54s10]

Yup, that's what I said.
Yup, that's what I said.

That's not the way I read what you said....

"Less bittering = sweeter beer with more malt flavor
More bittering = less sweet, more bitter beer with less malt flavor"

By what you said, I take it that bittering is the control over malt flavor... Partially true but to a small extent....

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

Did Palmer carry this same advice over into later releases of his book, or did he get rid of it? Is volume one the only place it shows up?

 

[MildAvers]

By what you said, I take it that bittering is the control over malt flavor... Partially true but to a small extent....

I can understand your misunderstanding.

Too sweet? Add more bittering?
Not malty enough? Add more malt?

 

[Homergah]

The thickness of the mash has a slight effect on the temperature that beta-amylase is activated. So there's the reason that you will occasionally see the "thin mash-dry beer". This is something I chased for some time many years ago when I was developing an ultra low abv beer. There is something to it. But you probably will not see a huge difference in your average beer.

 

[kh54s10]

I can understand your misunderstanding.

Too sweet? Add more bittering?
Not malty enough? Add more malt?

True more bittering will make a sweet beer seem less sweet. And that you can make a dry beer seem more malty by using less bittering hops.
But it is better to use a balanced recipe than to try to correct with just more or less bittering hops. Malty or not. A good recipe is a combination of malts and hops. There are also many other things that contribute to too dry or too sweet.

 

[MildAvers]

True more bittering will make a sweet beer seem less sweet. And that you can make a dry beer seem more malty by using less bittering hops.
But it is better to use a balanced recipe than to try to correct with just more or less bittering hops. Malty or not. A good recipe is a combination of malts and hops. There are also many other things that contribute to too dry or too sweet.

Really? I'm just having fun dude.

 

[Dgallo]

Really? I'm just having fun dude.

Idk about that man. You were pretty adamant when you said “yeah. That’s what I said” twice. when both times, it was 100% not what you said lol

 

[Homergah]

Considering the source of your quandary is "How To Brew" version 1.... I wish Palmer would remove that from the Internet.

It's really not that complex:

Less bittering = sweeter beer with more malt flavor
More bittering = less sweet, more bitter beer with less malt flavor

The Palmer work is mostly regurgitated knowledge that has been known, discussed, and used for many years. He just stuck it all in one easy to find place.

But I get what you're saying, Mr. Obvious!

 

[MildAvers]

Idk about that man. You were pretty adamant when you said “yeah. That’s what I said” twice. when both times, it was 100% not what you said lol

It's exactly what I was saying but I was purposefully saying it loose, like what a certain well known pragmatist says when asked about adding more hop or malt flavor... "just add more hops or more malt".

Y'all take this stuff pretty serious.

 

[kh54s10]

It's exactly what I was saying but I was purposefully saying it loose, like what a certain well known pragmatist says when asked about adding more hop or malt flavor... "just add more hops or more malt".

Y'all take this stuff pretty serious.

Yes... When you give really vague and misleading information.

 

[MildAvers]

Yes... When you give really vague and misleading information.

I have given no misleading information but I see your game, you think if you get the last word you somehow magically "win". Good luck with that.

 

[kh54s10]

I have given no misleading information but I see your game, you think if you get the last word you somehow magically "win". Good luck with that.[/QUOTE

I'm not the only one.....

 

[grampamark]

 

[Big Monk]

I routinely perform no sparge mashes above 5 l/kg.

 

[Homergah]

At first I thought why the heck did he post that? Then i listened to it. Appropriate. And perfect!

 

[deadwolfbones]

Hoppiness/bitterness and maltiness aren't mutually exclusive. See: an American barleywine like Bigfoot. 100 IBU and still intensely malty.

 

[Dgallo]

Hoppiness/bitterness and maltiness aren't mutually exclusive. See: an American barleywine like Bigfoot. 100 IBU and still intensely malty.

This was exactly what I was going to post earlier; sweetness isn’t maltyness imo, it’s sweetness. Maltyness would be the actual flavor of malt. Barleywines, hoppy ambers, hoppy saisons, all have 50 ibus or better and still produce wonderful malt profiles. Grain bill is king when your talking maltyness, sure there are ways to enhance that to an extend through LODO and mash temps but the main factor is your grain bill.

 

[Hopalong]

Since, the grain bill is king and there are two types of malt, high modified malt and under modified malt which one is the best to use for producing malty ale and lager with body and mouthfeel? There is high protein two row malt and low protein two row malt which one is the best malt to use? There is the decoction brewing method, the step mash method and the single temperature infusion method which method is the best to use to produce a malty ale and lager with body and mouthfeel?
Thanks.