Do you think the professional breweries tell the truth

[moski]

I find that a BS reason. If they don't want to give out their recipes, that's their right, and I'm fine with it. But then just say you don't want to. To claim you're doing homebrewers a service by not giving out your recipes is farcical. [snip] So by all means, withhold your recipe, but just do it on the grounds that you don't want to give it out, not by claiming you're protecting all the poor homebrewers out there by not giving it out.

I agree totally with this. The brewmaster came off kinda high handed and uppity to my mind, lind of like the people who blithly state "it's the journey, not the destination". Well for this guy with two jobs, a wife, and a kid who's busy outside school five days a week I don't have the time for some enlightened "journey". I'd just like to brew "that beer" that I liked so much and learn through that process to a known exemplar, the commercial bottle.

To use a cooking anology, I've found it easier to use a recipe to learn from a known sample how the ingredients mix and marry than to throw stuff together and guess which interactions produced what I'm tasting. For me it pays to start at a list of knowns then tweak one item at a time, learning what they contribute to the mix. Working out the recipe on your own (esp for a nOOb like me) gives me a laundry list of unknowns to sort out before even getting close to the taste I'm looking for.

Take the leffe clone I have in the works. I dont have the experience to get appreciably close on the first try on my own from scratch. I also dont have the time to go through 3-5+ batches tweaking along the way to get what I want, not including making allowances for equipment variables (another boogyman). Yeah each will produce beer, but it aint the beer I want.

As far as the breweries giving accurate information, I think they do. I can't see that they see us as a threat to their bottom line. Homebrewers may seem rather thick on the ground here but "out in the world" I think were more thinly spread. Plus I think it's been said that recipe buzz directs attention to their product to a certain dregree.

 

[Homercidal]

I completely agree. I have never been interested in cloning any commercial brew. I am very much inspired by commercial beers I have drank but never have I wanted to copy them verbatim. What is the point? Go buy a sixer of it and save some money, seriously. I guess people see it as a challenge but I think trying to piece it out yourself and dial it in is much more the point of a challenge instead of copying a recipe a brewer gives you to duplicate it to the letter.

Just my .02.

For starters, I actually enjoy homebrewing. It's not a chore to brew, it's fun. And so while I'm homebrewing, why not brew a beer that I like, like Bell's Two Hearted IPA? I can use Bell's as a model to judge my process. It's especially useful if I know the basic recipe to start with.

Also, I can brew Two Hearted for about 1/3 the price that I can buy it locally (Price per 6-pack vs cost of 6 bottles of a 5 gallon batch of homebrew), so I'd rather Homebrew and save some money, seriously.

 

[TrubHead]

For starters, I actually enjoy homebrewing. It's not a chore to brew, it's fun. And so while I'm homebrewing, why not brew a beer that I like, like Bell's Two Hearted IPA? I can use Bell's as a model to judge my process. It's especially useful if I know the basic recipe to start with.

Also, I can brew Two Hearted for about 1/3 the price that I can buy it locally (Price per 6-pack vs cost of 6 bottles of a 5 gallon batch of homebrew), so I'd rather Homebrew and save some money, seriously.

I'm of the same mindset here. Enjoy brewing, appreciate the learning process and along the way save some cash for other hobbies/expenses.

 

[PhelanKA7]

For starters, I actually enjoy homebrewing. It's not a chore to brew, it's fun. And so while I'm homebrewing, why not brew a beer that I like, like Bell's Two Hearted IPA? I can use Bell's as a model to judge my process. It's especially useful if I know the basic recipe to start with.

Also, I can brew Two Hearted for about 1/3 the price that I can buy it locally (Price per 6-pack vs cost of 6 bottles of a 5 gallon batch of homebrew), so I'd rather Homebrew and save some money, seriously.

I'm pretty sure I didn't say anything about homebrewing being a chore or not. I only said that I personally prefer to be inspired by a finished product and figure out along the way what gets me close to those examples instead of just coloring within the lines.

 

[BrewKnurd]

I'm pretty sure I didn't say anything about homebrewing being a chore or not. I only said that I personally prefer to be inspired by a finished product and figure out along the way what gets me close to those examples instead of just coloring within the lines.

But you did ask what's the point of cloning a recipe, and he was, as I read it, answering that question. "The point" for him is that he enjoys the process, and then gets to enjoy the end result.

 

[norsk]

I'm fortunate to live close to several breweries and brew masters who are very forthcoming with advice and details on how they brew their beers. I usually brew to get close to one of their beers I like the most, then after the first one I tailor the next one to make it into something I like even more. Once in a while I bring in my own beer for a comparison and tasting with the brew master. Amazing what these guys can tell from just a sip of beer...

 

[highgravitybacon]

I sent a brewery a question about how much pecan they use in their pecan beer, because i was brewing a pecan porter as part of an iron brewer competition. Their response was "I'm sure you understand why we can't share any information about our recipes." I felt like writing back "actually no, I can't understand in the slightest why you think your recipe is so important that you won't even share some ballpark figures on pecan additions."

Because 10 years from now, you're going to open a nano brewery that will springboard into a 300bbl regional powerhouse. Over the next 5 years, you will create an ultimate pecan beer clone, Identical Clone, that you will pump out of your now 900 bbl brewhouse, and release to the market at cost. This will be so cheap that the brewery you got the recipe from wont be able to compete in the pecan flavored beer market. They will fold under your great might . You will then control 96% of the pecan beer industry all because one micro brewery foolishly gave you a ballpark figure of their pecan content 20 years ago.

 

[Piratwolf]

Because 10 years from now, you're going to open a nano brewery that will springboard into a 300bbl regional powerhouse. Over the next 5 years, you will create an ultimate pecan beer clone, Identical Clone, that you will pump out of your now 900 bbl brewhouse, and release to the market at cost. This will be so cheap that the brewery you got the recipe from wont be able to compete in the pecan flavored beer market. They will fold under your great might . You will then control 96% of the pecan beer industry all because one micro brewery foolishly gave you a ballpark figure of their pecan content 20 years ago.

Darn you, Ba-KHAAAAAAAN! You figured out my evil pecan-beer-market domination scheme!

 

[passedpawn]

The reason pro breweries won't release their recipes is simple: there's zero incentive to do so, and the risks of releasing it are unknown.

 

[BrewKnurd]

The reason pro breweries won't release their recipes is simple: there's zero incentive to do so, and the risks of releasing it are unknown.

I disagree that the incentive is zero. Building goodwill and positive brand image with home brewers has value. How much value? I sure don't know, but giving some of the most passionate beer drinkers around an additional reason to like your brewery has value.

 

[GrogNerd]

I disagree that the incentive is zero. Building goodwill and positive brand image with home brewers has value.

likelyhood that they would build goodwill with home brewers; inversely proportional to the size of the brewery

 

[passedpawn]

I disagree that the incentive is zero. Building goodwill and positive brand image with home brewers has value. How much value? I sure don't know, but giving some of the most passionate beer drinkers around an additional reason to like your brewery has value.

OK, some of that, but I'm sure if you looked at a pie chart of their customers, home brewers would be a very, very small piece. Of course, I'm making up statistics, but wth this is the internet.

 

[BrewKnurd]

OK, some of that, but I'm sure if you looked at a pie chart of their customers, home brewers would be a very, very small piece. Of course, I'm making up statistics, but wth this is the internet.

I am almost certain you are correct.

 

[RuffRider]

I have to agree that I don't think there's any real incentive (from a business perspective) for a professional brewery to offer up their recipe's to the homebrewing world. What would we do? Organize and boycott them for withholding them? Doubtful. That being said, many professional brewers (particularly craft brews) have ties (or a past) in the homebrewing world and have a general love and appreciation for the brewing of good beer. I think it actually makes some of them feel good to share it (and maybe puts their brand in a positive light in some circles). A local brewery here (Holy City), sells the same grains, hops, and yeast used in their beers in an effort to promote homebrewing.

As for clones, I read the blog from Starr Hill Brewery and I have to agree with those who say his response appears condescending with a lecturing tone. If he doesn't want to give out recipes, like others have already said, just say so. But, since he gets asked, I guess he is entitled to whatever answer he would like to give.

As for brewing clones, I do it on occasion. The first clone I ever brewed was a DFH 60 minute. I thought it tasted great and I enjoyed the heck out of it. My next brew is going to be a clone of Pliny the Elder. Why? Because I live in South Carolina. Mr. Pliny has never graced South Carolina with his presence so I have never had one. I would like to brew a clone of it to get some idea of what Pliny is like.

Just my humble .02 cents. Cheers!

EDIT: Here's the link to Holy City where they discuss homebrewing
http://www.holycitybrewing.com/homebrew-supplies

 

[BrewKnurd]

I have to agree that I don't think there's any real incentive (from a business perspective) for a professional brewery to offer up their recipe's to the homebrewing world. What would we do? Organize and boycott them for withholding them? Doubtful.

Certainly not. Although I will say that when it comes to choosing between two otherwise equally appealing beers, I am now less likely to pick beers from Lazy Magnolia as a result of their response. So no, not a boycott, but when all else is approximately equal, their choice will impact my buying decisions.

I fully admit that my personal decision will have no noticeable impact on their bottom line, and even the cumulative impact of all homebrewer's who took the same course of action would be minimal at best, and probably also not noticeable. :fro:

 

[RuffRider]

Certainly not. Although I will say that when it comes to choosing between two otherwise equally appealing beers, I am now less likely to pick beers from Lazy Magnolia as a result of their response. So no, not a boycott, but when all else is approximately equal, their choice will impact my buying decisions.

Great point! I was just sitting here thinking about how I would feel staring at a Starr Hill brew and deciding on a purchase. Right or wrong, I don't think I would buy one right now.

 

[GrogNerd]

Great point! I was just sitting here thinking about how I would feel staring at a Starr Hill brew and deciding on a purchase. Right or wrong, I don't think I would buy one right now.

in his defense, they do include ingredients on the particular brews' web page, just not exact grain bill or hop schedule.

doesn't make him any less of a dick

at the store today, I did pass up Northern Lights, The Gift and The Love for some other beers

 

[hogwash]

in his defense, they do include ingredients on the particular brews' web page, just not exact grain bill or hop schedule.

doesn't make him any less of a dick

at the store today, I did pass up Northern Lights, The Gift and The Love for some other beers

No one is missing anything by passing up a Starr Hill. ba-ZIIING!!

Sorry, just had to snark. They make a couple decent beers but I don't care for most of their stuff. Anyway, sorry for going off topic...

 

[GrogNerd]

No one is missing anything by passing up a Starr Hill. ba-ZIIING!!

Sorry, just had to snark. They make a couple decent beers but I don't care for most of their stuff. Anyway, sorry for going off topic...

says dude who lives 15 miles from the brewery

 

[Piratwolf]

No one is missing anything by passing up a Starr Hill. ba-ZIIING!!

Sorry, just had to snark. They make a couple decent beers but I don't care for most of their stuff. Anyway, sorry for going off topic...

I agree with this wholeheartedly, and did before I saw the snarky comment from them. Their beer is adequate, IMO, but nothing more. Rather drink Hardywood, Smartmouth (b/c it's local), or a West Coast IPA. But mostly I drink my own, clone or not

 

[kingwood-kid]

OK, some of that, but I'm sure if you looked at a pie chart of their customers, home brewers would be a very, very small piece. Of course, I'm making up statistics, but wth this is the internet.

If you're going to make up statistics, do so with unassailable precision. Everyone knows 7.84% of craft brew is sold to rectangular cooler batch spargers! I'll agree that homebrewers are a small slice. But most craft breweries have minimal advertising budgets; cultivating the fanatical windbags is a cheap way of generating word-of-mouth. Plus if I'm trying to clone your beer, I have to keep buying six-packs so I can post side-by-side photos on HBT.

 

[highgravitybacon]

If you're going to make up statistics, do so with unassailable precision. Everyone knows 7.84% of craft brew is sold to rectangular cooler batch spargers! I'll agree that homebrewers are a small slice. But most craft breweries have minimal advertising budgets; cultivating the fanatical windbags is a cheap way of generating word-of-mouth. Plus if I'm trying to clone your beer, I have to keep buying six-packs so I can post side-by-side photos on HBT.

He's not making up statistics. You are. 8% of it is ROUND cooler fly spargers.

But you're spot on about the clone beer generating, not taking away from, sales of said cloned beer. I am frequently amused by people who "clone" a beer they've never had. I get what they mean, but if you've never had it, how can you reasonably a. know that it isn't overhyped turd sauce in a bottle, b. your clone was indeed a clone and simply not another variation of a recipe?

 

[RuffRider]

I am frequently amused by people who "clone" a beer they've never had. I get what they mean, but if you've never had it, how can you reasonably a. know that it isn't overhyped turd sauce in a bottle, b. your clone was indeed a clone and simply not another variation of a recipe?

Considering I'm the one who mentioned cloning a Pliny that I've never had, I would be happy to respond to your questions.

a. Does it taste like overhyped turd sauce? Cause if it does, tell me now before I waste some cash on grains and hops. Considering the reputation of the beer and my love of the style, I'm pretty sure that its not overhyped turd sauce. So, if my clone comes out tasting like the turd sauce you mention, I can safely assume I screwed something up. Not sure if I've ever had turd sauce, but I can imagine it tastes pretty bad. Look, I couldn't try Yoopers House Pale Ale before I made it either and it didn't taste like turd sauce. It was great! Should I have requested a bottle of it from her before daring to try the recipe?

b. I can't possibly know and I don't really care. In the end, I just hope it tastes good. But what I do know is that I hear lots of great things about Pliny and I have a recipe for it. Why not try it? It's not like my goal is to slap a fake Pliny label on it and try to pass it off as the real thing to my buddies. My goal is to make great beer. I found a recipe that could make great beer (that happens to be a clone). Why not try it?

Now, if anyone does have some Pliny they would like to send me in the name of satisfying a perceived requirement to have the original beer before you try a clone recipe, PM me and I'll get you my shipping address.

 

[hogwash]

says dude who lives 15 miles from the brewery

Heheh. We are somewhat awash in their beer here and I used to drink the heck out of it. But I feel like the quality went down after they got the big distribution deal. The double platinum is quite good, or at least it was the last time I had it a couple summers ago. The initial version of Northern Lights was very good but they changed the recipe and it's not nearly as good now. The Dark Starr Stout is usually good, too. Pass on the amber and Jomo. To be fair, I need to hit the tasting room sometime and try some of the new stuff. They've been doing some more interesting stuff that I haven't tasted.

My opinions, of course. Sorry to hijack the thread.

 

[MagicSmoker]

I completely agree. I have never been interested in cloning any commercial brew. I am very much inspired by commercial beers I have drank but never have I wanted to copy them verbatim. What is the point?...

I'm relatively new to brewing and my main reason for wanting to brew known-accurate clone beers is to see how good my *process* is. For example, my first batch was an ESB using a custom recipe from my LHBS. To be blunt, it didn't turn out at all like I expected an ESB (and I mean a real ESB from a London pub, not Redhook). So my 2nd and 3rd batches were clones of two of my favorite beers, Bell's Two-Hearted and Terrapin Rye. The Bell's clone has been in the bottle for 2 weeks and tastes fantastic, with the only major difference I can detect is a little bit of cotton candy presence. The Terrapin Rye clone just got bottled on Sunday so it has a bit more conditioning to do before sampling, but if it turns out close to what I expect then I will have more confidence in my process going forward.

 

[GrogNerd]

Heheh. We are somewhat awash in their beer here and I used to drink the heck out of it. But I feel like the quality went down after they got the big distribution deal. The double platinum is quite good, or at least it was the last time I had it a couple summers ago. The initial version of Northern Lights was very good but they changed the recipe and it's not nearly as good now. The Dark Starr Stout is usually good, too. To be fair, I need to hit the tasting room sometime and try some of the new stuff.

My opinions, of course. Sorry to hijack the thread.

only started brewing back in October and started trying different beers from Total Wine single-bottle section, so only have had Northern Lights, Double Platinum, The Gift and Starr Saison.

now it's been a while and trying several other different breweries' offerings since, but I liked the SH's I have tried. Except the saison. didn't care for it, but I think I can blame that on an unrefined palate, not being used to beers other than PAs, IPAs and BMC types.

now I think I have to post this in the "funny things about beer" thread: the BigHair was at Wegman's and they had a rep from Starr Hill giving free samples of the Saison and my wife tried it, said she liked it. told the rep, "my husband likes Northern Lights" and the rep said, "oh, then he'll LOVE this."

again, I'm still shiny at this, but really? so, the BigHair brought home a 6pack and we're not even liking it at all

 

[hogwash]

A saison is nothing like an IPA. That's an example of the rep either knowing nothing about beer or just trying to push their new offering on someone who doesn't know any better. Talk about building ill will.

That being said, that's one of the new ones that I want to try. I love a good saison.

 

[GrogNerd]

A saison is nothing like an IPA. That's an example of the rep either knowing nothing about beer or just trying to push their new offering on someone who doesn't know any better.

the two are not mutually exclusive

That being said, that's one of the new ones that I want to try. I love a good saison.

remember: ba-ZIIING!!

 

[DPBISME]

I like the variation I get.... I brewed a Harppon Clone recently and it is way hopper than I expected... I am letting it sit in my Kegs for a few months to see if it mellow to what I like...

If not I will cut back on the hops next time... BUT loads of other people love it!

I am a maltman my self and thin a really good brew should remind you of an unsweet milkshake....

 

[Proboscidea]

I do feel kinda duuuuuuuurty when I buy a clone kit from [one of my favorite purveyors who shall go nameless here]. I mean, clearly [the purveyor] is banking on the brewery's name recognition and reputation, and none of the money [the purveyor] earns from the kit goes back to the brewery. Probably. The purveyor I'm thinking of offers clone kits from dozens of breweries; I doubt they have kickback agreements with all of them.

On the other hand, just by looking through their list of clones, I find out about new beers I've never had before. If they sound good, I'll buy their bottles at BevMo or whatever. So there's a sale and a level of consumer awareness they wouldn't have had without the clone purveyor. I know, that's a corner-corner-corner case of a silver lining.

On the other hand, I could just get the clone recipe online and buy the ingredients piecemeal from that same purveyor. The purveyor's kits just make it a one-click proposition for me.

I don't know. Gray area.