Do you think the professional breweries tell the truth
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ArcaneXor
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From someone who has some pro-am experience... the recipe changes (slightly) every time you get in a new batch of ingredients. Lots of variables to adjust for to keep the product consistent.
So breweries who publish their recipes are publishing a snapshot in time. There is much more to a beer than a list of ingredients. So they have little to lose in publishing recipes.
So breweries who publish their recipes are publishing a snapshot in time. There is much more to a beer than a list of ingredients. So they have little to lose in publishing recipes.
Give two brewers the exact same recipe and have them brew it. They're not going to be identical beers. Brewing is only partially recipe, the rest is process. There's a reason why every time a pro brewer changes equipment configuration, either the recipe or the process has to change slightly to get the same beer. Boil strength, boil volume, kettle design, fermenter design, batch size, all of these things have an impact on flavor. So they have no reason to hide their recipes.
Your big macro level breweries blend batches to match particular flavor profiles.
Smaller micro and local breweries don't have the storage capacity to do this. So there can be nuance differences from batch to batch. Which to me is the beauty and art of brewing beer. Every time it is going to be slightly different. And the difference between a brewer, and a great brewer is their ability to match and repeat the same beer over and over again.
Smaller micro and local breweries don't have the storage capacity to do this. So there can be nuance differences from batch to batch. Which to me is the beauty and art of brewing beer. Every time it is going to be slightly different. And the difference between a brewer, and a great brewer is their ability to match and repeat the same beer over and over again.
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Let's face it, most home brewers (including me) have had trouble doing a kit correctly. If that wasn't true, 2/3 of the threads here on HBT wouldn't exist. So I'm pretty sure that the pros have little fear that we're going to cut into their profit share. If you listen to CYBI, you'll hear JZ and Tasty say the recipes are legit and there are many pros who are very supportive of the home brew community b/c they know we buy and spread the word about their beers. I have, however, heard some brewers protect certain processes or techniques that are cutting edge, and I have no problem with that.
BreezyBrew
IPA is my spirit animal
^ This. I know the recipe for Rogue Dead Guy on their website has malt variety that hasn't existed for years.
In my mind, the one thing that pro brewers seem to keep a secret is the water profiles. I'd guess everything else is fairly accurate.
GrogNerd
mean old man
Starr Hill is tight-lipped about their recipes
reasoning is that we wouldn't appreciate it/it wouldn't be as satisfying if we didn't work it out ourselves
reasoning is that we wouldn't appreciate it/it wouldn't be as satisfying if we didn't work it out ourselves
alane1
Well-Known Member
why would it matter to the big guys, even if you made the same brew comercialy why would you want to make the same exact beer as someone else.Kind of unoriginal if you ask me.
I completely agree. I have never been interested in cloning any commercial brew. I am very much inspired by commercial beers I have drank but never have I wanted to copy them verbatim. What is the point? Go buy a sixer of it and save some money, seriously. I guess people see it as a challenge but I think trying to piece it out yourself and dial it in is much more the point of a challenge instead of copying a recipe a brewer gives you to duplicate it to the letter.
Just my .02.
aiptasia
Well-Known Member
This. I think they're supportive of the homebrew world because most of the indie brewers came up from their ranks. I also think it honors them to have people attempt clone beers. It's the ultimate form of flattery and they know that homebrewers aren't going to be mass producing and retailing clones.
I've found that the micros that produce whales are more protective over those beer recipes.
Challenge accepted. As aforementioned, CYBI's entire show is based on it and hundreds of avid homebrewers attempt clones based on what they taste in the commercial example all the time. For example, stone will give you every recipe if you ask for it, except for one, Arrogant Bastard. Didn't stop CYBI from attempting it five times, until they got it just right.
GrogNerd
mean old man
good point
as a shiny n00b, I'm not really looking for the challenge of figuring clones out myself, the process of brewing by itself is enough challenge right now. but I do like research as to what makes it taste the way it does, and I think a recipe helps
love Northern Lights, and SH at least lists the grains and hops used, if not the exact grain bill or hop schedule. guess I don't need the exact recipe to figure the rest out, but it would help.
a wise man once said, "it's all beer, it's all good"
no, wait... he was an idiot, but it's still true
BigRedHopHead
Well-Known Member
I disagree with your post. I don't have the time to fiddle with tirelessly trying to figure out batches. I know what I like, and I would like to recreate it quickly. It is no different than copying Emeril's gumbo (which I am doing today). Cloning is very popular for these reasons and more more. This is exactly the point, and why we have entire issues, publications, podcasts, etc.... devoted to cloning beers. This way someone else who has the time can do the dirty work and and I can copy it. I really enjoy this hobby, but with a family and a career I have to partition my time.
BigRedHopHead
Well-Known Member
To answer the OP's question directly, Yes. I think the craft breweries generally tell the truth. Heck most of the time they post the ingredients on their website for each beer, just not quantities. I think many of the clone recipes are for beers that have just about maximized their potential for $$. i.e. SN pale ale.
I'm sure you've heard the adage "It's not about the destination. It's about the journey." I also have a family and own my own small business so my time is at a premium as well but I just think copying down recipes and doing them verbatim is totally missing the point. The best cooks, brewers, writers, and artists in general very seldom do something 100% original but just as seldom do they copy a recipe or example verbatim. It is interpretation of an existing example that is the greatest teacher. Almost every time I have tried to interpret a recipe instead of copying it verbatim the end product is better than the original because it is tailored to my tastes. Please try it sometime instead of copying a recipe verbatim. I'm not talking about brewing the same thing over and over and over to get it exactly like the example. I am talking about taking an educated guess at what went into the original and mutating it. THat is called evolution.
BrewKnurd
Well-Known Member
I find that a BS reason. If they don't want to give out their recipes, that's their right, and I'm fine with it. But then just say you don't want to. To claim you're doing homebrewers a service by not giving out your recipes is farcical. Its up to each homebrewer to decide if working out the recipe on their own, or working out their own style, is important to them. And for the homebrewers who want to be the best brewers they can be, then yes, figuring things like that out on their own are important. Problem is, many homebrewers don't fall into that category, and you wouldn't be doing them any disservice by giving them a recipe.
So by all means, withhold your recipe, but just do it on the grounds that you don't want to give it out, not by claiming you're protecting all the poor homebrewers out there by not giving it out.
BrewKnurd
Well-Known Member
Homebrewing doesn't have the same "point" for everyone.
Absolutely, but not everyone who brews wants to be the best. Some of them just want to make beer.
To be clear, I completely agree with you as far as how I like to brew. I tweak things, I play around with things to find out how things work and to make things that are truly mine. I just get annoyed when people try to tell other folks what they should consider important as far as brewing philosophy, which is what it felt like you were doing. Perhaps I was wrong.
I find that a BS reason. If they don't want to give out their recipes, that's their right, and I'm fine with it. But then just say you don't want to. To claim you're doing homebrewers a service by not giving out your recipes is farcical. Its up to each homebrewer to decide if working out the recipe on their own, or working out their own style, is important to them. And for the homebrewers who want to be the best brewers they can be, then yes, figuring things like that out on their own are important. Problem is, many homebrewers don't fall into that category, and you wouldn't be doing them any disservice by giving them a recipe.
So by all means, withhold your recipe, but just do it on the grounds that you don't want to give it out, not by claiming you're protecting all the poor homebrewers out there by not giving it out.
Yeah, I agree that that was a bad way of saying it. It comes off sounding like he's a father figure to homebrewers and he's showing them some tough love. Please.
It is absolutely none of my business how another brewer goes about his craft. I was just offering my .02 on the subject of "To Clone or Not to Clone" and why I do not do clone recipes. Also I was offering my thoughts on why homebrewers should try and ween themselves off clone recipes but if they want to stick with that because they enjoy it, that is 100% their business and power to em :fro:
BrewKnurd
Well-Known Member
I sent a brewery a question about how much pecan they use in their pecan beer, because i was brewing a pecan porter as part of an iron brewer competition. Their response was "I'm sure you understand why we can't share any information about our recipes." I felt like writing back "actually no, I can't understand in the slightest why you think your recipe is so important that you won't even share some ballpark figures on pecan additions."
I sent a brewery a question about how much pecan they use in their pecan beer, because i was brewing a pecan porter as part of an iron brewer competition. Their response was "I'm sure you understand why we can't share any information about our recipes." I felt like writing back "actually no, I can't understand in the slightest why you think your recipe is so important that you won't even share some ballpark figures on pecan additions."
That illuminates an interesting disparity in the brewing community. Most small scale craft brewers I talk to love to talk shop and share recipes and specific ideas on what they do with me. And even some bigger guys have been helpful through email correspondences (Sixpoint and Upland in particular) but usually the bigger the brewery the more tight-lipped and less helpful they are to other brewers.
BrewKnurd
Well-Known Member
Yes, there is quite an interesting spectrum there. And then with Stone, you even have that spectrum within one brewery, as they have published numerous recipes in books and magazines, they did the whole homebrew version of each vertical epic on their webpage, and I'm told they're generally quite helpful if you ask them for brewing information. EXCEPT if its about arrogant bastard, in which case they will tell you nothing.
GrogNerd
mean old man
nothing wrong with a map or tour guide, not to get you where you're going faster or easier, but maybe to point out the interesting things along the way that you might otherwise miss
recipe is just a map, brewing from it is the journey
I know this discussion has moved into why they may or may not want to share recipes & secrets, and I don't want to digress from that because the replies have been enlightening & enjoyable. But ... basically, it's my belief that if pros share their recipes, one may safely assume they are being truthful.
Because think of the alternative: if they provided a fake recipe or lied about ingredients, can you imagine the backlash in the wide-ranging communities of beer aficionados, home brewers, and trade orgs? It's not like we're judgmental and grudge-holdy or anything.
I could maybe see them being tight-lipped about certain parts of the process (like mash or fermentation temps), but not lying outright about the components in the recipe. Unless they want to invite the infinite searing wrath of all the exploding supernovas ever.
I think the biggest trade secret is hop extracts. The brewing industry depends on them for consistent bitter to bitter character. The famous Pliny the Elder recipe published by Vinnie did not include hop extract in the recipe.
Lagunitas uses copious amounts of hop extract in hop stupid. We'll never know the exact chemical properties of hop extracts used.
Lagunitas uses copious amounts of hop extract in hop stupid. We'll never know the exact chemical properties of hop extracts used.
william_shakes_beer
Well-Known Member
I believe the macro breweries are tight lipped about their recipies because most of them compete to sell light lagers that are nearly identical in taste. By contrast, the smaller breweries rely on beer that sell to folks like us at a premium price and vary widely in taste. Those that ask for recipies do so because they appreciate good beer. Try asking grandma for her recipie for peanut butter fudge. Its one thing to say " this tastes great" its a compliment on a whole higher level to ask for the recipie. Discussion on these forums drive more people to seek discussed beers and provide potential to expended their distribution radius. Word of mouth advertising is less expensive and more effective than superbowl ads. I bought a case of DFH Raison D' Etre to see if I liked it long before i brewed the clone.
helibrewer
Well-Known Member
The secret ingredient use to be yeast. Now with White and Wyeast we can get yeast that is pretty close to the commercial guys, the the adventurous can farm the bottle dregs to get closer. Some breweries still hold tight to proprietary yeast strains and yeast strains have a significant contribution to the finished product...the grain bill, hops, mash profile, etc. are just a piece of the puzzle.
