Do These Water Profiles Look OK?

[KeyWestBrewing]

Hello all I hope everyone is doing well. I tried getting into water chemistry about a year ago and decided I wasnt quite ready. Well lately I've been working at it again and I think now Ive got a better grip on things. So I'd like some feedback on these profiles to see if I'm on the right track before I try brewing with them. Thanks!

My Water

Ca- 29
Mg - 0
Na - 16.7
SO4 - 52
Cl - 3.9
HCO3 - 34

Stout Profile

Ca - 50.16
Mg - 0
Na - 121.42
SO4 - 52.1
Cl - 135.9
HCO3 - 122.68

Additions - 4g Salt, 1.5g Baking Soda, 1g Chalk


IPA Profile

Ca - 174.33
Mg - 10.44
Na - 26.78
SO4 - 270.18
Cl - 29.38
HCO3 - 146.14

Additions - 6g Gypsum, 2.7g Chalk, 2g Epsom Salt, 1g CaCl, .7g Baking Soda

 

[ajdelange]

So I'd like some feedback on these profiles to see if I'm on the right track before I try brewing with them. Thanks!

My Water

Ca- 29
Mg - 0
Na - 16.7
SO4 - 52
Cl - 3.9
HCO3 - 34

It would be really nice if people understood that we want an alkalinity number, not a bicarbonate number. The first thing I have to do given a bicarb value is convert it to alkalinity which I can't do because I don't know the pH. Your alkalinity is between 29 and 32 assuming that your pH is in the normal range. The uncertainty isn't that great but understand that your lab measures alkalinity and computes bicarbonate from it and they don't always do it right. I much prefer to see what they measured and if I need bicarbonate, I'll calculate it myself correctly (and I need alkalinity and pH to do that).

Stout Profile

Ca - 50.16
Mg - 0
Na - 121.42
SO4 - 52.1
Cl - 135.9
HCO3 - 122.68

Additions - 4g Salt, 1.5g Baking Soda, 1g Chalk

What kind of stout is this? For most you will not want any alkali and if you do chalk is a poor way to get it. Also, why is the sodium so high?

For an Irish stout with your water 2.5 grams each of calcium chloride and calcium sulfate should serve as a good starting point. Increase the sulfate based on taste tests on the beer brewed with the starting point water if you find it improves the beer.

For heavier stouts involving a lot of colored (caramel, crystal, roast) you may need some alkali. This is where sodium bicarbonate comes in but whether you need it or not and the amount will depend on how much of which dark malt you use.

IPA Profile

Ca - 174.33
Mg - 10.44
Na - 26.78
SO4 - 270.18
Cl - 29.38
HCO3 - 146.14

Additions - 6g Gypsum, 2.7g Chalk, 2g Epsom Salt, 1g CaCl, .7g Baking Soda

Chalk and baking soda are again mistakes here. Actually, the same profile as for the dry stout will be a good starting point but here you are going to need the opposite of baing soda or chalk i.e. you are going to need some acid conveniently in the form of sauermalz (it's hard to slip up and over dose with that). Use 1 - 2% of the grist weight.

The sulfate level you have here is at or below what many people like but it is way above what many others can tolerate. I suggest the modest starting sulfate level until you determine whether you are among those that likes the higher level.

 

[KeyWestBrewing]

It would be really nice if people understood that we want an alkalinity number, not a bicarbonate number. The first thing I have to do given a bicarb value is convert it to alkalinity which I can't do because I don't know the pH. Your alkalinity is between 29 and 32 assuming that your pH is in the normal range. The uncertainty isn't that great but understand that your lab measures alkalinity and computes bicarbonate from it and they don't always do it right. I much prefer to see what they measured and if I need bicarbonate, I'll calculate it myself correctly (and I need alkalinity and pH to do that).


What kind of stout is this? For most you will not want any alkali and if you do chalk is a poor way to get it. Also, why is the sodium so high?

For an Irish stout with your water 2.5 grams each of calcium chloride and calcium sulfate should serve as a good starting point. Increase the sulfate based on taste tests on the beer brewed with the starting point water if you find it improves the beer.

For heavier stouts involving a lot of colored (caramel, crystal, roast) you may need some alkali. This is where sodium bicarbonate comes in but whether you need it or not and the amount will depend on how much of which dark malt you use.




Chalk and baking soda are again mistakes here. Actually, the same profile as for the dry stout will be a good starting point but here you are going to need the opposite of baing soda or chalk i.e. you are going to need some acid conveniently in the form of sauermalz (it's hard to slip up and over dose with that). Use 1 - 2% of the grist weight.

The sulfate level you have here is at or below what many people like but it is way above what many others can tolerate. I suggest the modest starting sulfate level until you determine whether you are among those that likes the higher level.

My bad the pH is 7.1 and hardness is 73. I'm trying to build profiles for sweet stouts and IPA's. The reasoning behind all the numbers for the stout came from here ... https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f36/mashing-perfect-sweet-stout-173417/

which was also posted here.... http://www.madalchemist.com/archives/mashing-the-perfect-sweet-stout/

I posted the target levels described in the links in my Beersmith then played around with the additions to match it as closely as possible. My stouts are usually ~10% dark malts and my IPAs are ~10-15% crystal.
I will note that I've been trying to find the appropriate levels for everything based on the style which has been difficult to find. So my additions and target levels have been based on what info I've been able to dig up.

For the IPAs I was under the impression I should use Gypsum to raise my Ca levels which would help acidify the mash while boosting the sulphates to accentuate hoppyness. Targeting a 9 to 1 sulphate to Cl ratio(said to be used by SN for hoppy brews) and using the rest of the profile cited here ....

http://beeradvocate.com/community/threads/anyone-build-their-own-water-for-ipas.86949/

The intention of the chalk and baking soda was to also boost the Ca without raising the sulphate levels any higher, which I'm taking it that was the wrong move from your response. In addition to hardening the water a bit since my reading led me to believe it was too soft.

If I could find ranges for target profiles based on style I wouldnt have done so much guess work but admittedly I'm still figuring everything out which is why I wanted to post here and get feedback. Basically I'm going off what info I can find and the ppm ranges Palmer says are acceptable. But none of the ranges Palmer mentioned, that I found anyway, was really style specific.

Thus far finding the right target profile that makes sense hasnt been easy which is making things more complicated. Sorry I'm being a total newb to this but I'm giving my best shot at understanding it all. Feel free to point out any flawed thinking and give any advice, my feelings wont get hurt I'm here to learn something I know almost nothing about.

 

[ajdelange]

As you are new to all this I think you have, as many have before you, succumbed to the temptation to over engineer things. The reason you are having trouble finding an ideal specification for a sweet stout is that there isn't any. Stouts are quite diverse ranging from the dry, slightly sour, thin, low alcohol Irish stouts to the strong but still dryish tropical stouts to the sweeter strong imperial stouts to the thick sweet milk stouts. Hops can be nuanced or strong or anything in between. The water should be whatever is needed to bring out or subdue whatever it is you are looking for. In general, the less mineralization of the water the better but some styles of beer want highly mineralized water. Don't pay too much attention to those who tell you that you must have this much bicarbonate or that much sulfate in a beer. Try to find out what's appropriate for which style generally speaking. For example, IPAs are usually but not always brewed with high sulfate water and Bohemian pils always with soft water but this is not true for German pils. Do not take too seriously any statements that you must have so much calcium and that the chloride to sulfate ratio should be a particular value for a 'malt forward' beer. Your stout should have as much, if any, alkalinity as needed to get its mash pH into the region around 5.4 - 5.5 as that's where it will probably taste best. Trying to chase individual enzymes, as suggested in one of the links you found, will not produce the best beer. If it takes some alkali to do this use only as much as it takes to do this. If you use more mash pH will go too high and the beer be dull. Don't take too seriously comments that you need a high pH in order to keep the beer from tasting sour. The yeast will put it where they want it to be whatever the pH of the mash (within reason).

Chasing target profiles for beer can lead to frustration, misunderstanding and beers that aren't that good because people don't appreciate all the ramifications of what a water profile means. It is much better to start off simple, as I suggested, and adjust calcium and sulfate levels as you gain experience and understand better the foundations of brewing water management. Unfortunately there is a ton of material out there, much of it dated, that gives bad advice but how are you to know?

 

[KeyWestBrewing]

I think you hit the nail on the head. Theres an overwhelming amount of info out there and it doesnt seem to follow the same ideas so putting it together is making things complicated. Ive been using gypsum at 1 tsp per 5 gal in my hoppy beers and theyre great but I'm willing to make further minor additions to my water if it will make them even better. Its my malty beers that seem to really lack richness and the reason I'm even looking into water chemistry again. Ive gone through everything except my mash pH and water itself so thats kinda the next place I figured I'd look for the malty backbone I cant nail down.

 

[KeyWestBrewing]

For an Irish stout with your water 2.5 grams each of calcium chloride and calcium sulfate should serve as a good starting point.

Going to be brewing Sunday with the adjustments you recommended and just wanted to clarify these additions are per 5gal of brew water correct?

 

[ajdelange]

Yes.

 

[KeyWestBrewing]

Yes.

Thank you