Do I need to transfer to a carboy?

[RedAleRobot]

(apologies for the typo in the title)

I have an IPA undergoing primary fermentation in my fermentation bucket right now. I usually transfer to a carboy for secondary fermentation, but after doing some reading I'm starting to see that two separate fermentations aren't really necessary. If this is the case, can I leave the beer in the bucket, or will it oxidize? Can single-stage fermentation only be done in a carboy?

 

[TheHappyHopper]

Most people on here stick with a single fermenter. Two main reasons for why you may want a secondary would be:
1 - adding fruit (or some other addition
2 - if the beer needs to age for an extended period of time (3+ months, depending on who you talk to )

For a typical IPA, there wouldn't be any need to transfer.

 

[jethro55]

Most people transfer to secondary just like brewing instructions indicate. Some do not and claim a superior advantage that is not supported by observation. Observations of the differences come down to personal preferences for brewing procedures and some rather evenly distributed taste preferences. Since that is subjective, each home brewer chooses based on experiences.

When you read or listen to arguement for one or the other, you are assessing the irrational and illogical.

 

[kev211]

No need to transfer to secondary. If you're worried about oxidation in the bucket, just make sure to leave the lid on as much as possible. I would really only remove it or the air lock to take gravity samples. By not removing it, you will keep co2 in the headspace and it will prevent oxidation.

 

[jwalker1140]

Most people transfer to secondary just like brewing instructions indicate.

Most? How do you know this? My personal hunch, based on forum chatter and newer books, is that while this may have been true 10 years ago, it's probably not today.

Some do not and claim a superior advantage that is not supported by observation.

My observation was that I wasn't getting any noticeable benefit from doing a secondary, so I stopped. And since then, it has been my observation that my beers are as good or better than before. YMMV.

When you read or listen to arguement for one or the other, you are assessing the irrational and illogical.

Mind = blown.

 

[jethro55]

One way wastes effort, the other wastes time.

 

[jethro55]

No need to transfer to secondary. If you're worried about oxidation in the bucket, just make sure to leave the lid on as much as possible. I would really only remove it or the air lock to take gravity samples. By not removing it, you will keep co2 in the headspace and it will prevent oxidation.

The oxidation boogey man does not come to those that consume their beer within several months.

 

[bigbirdga]

I have been brewing for over 30 years. I always use a secondary because I personally like clear (or as clear as possible) brews and I do not like to filter. Essentially no fermentation takes place in my secondary, only clarification or dry hopping if the brew calls for it. If I had a chill room I would cold crash but, then, if I had a 3000 sqft brewery and a lot of equipment, I would be in the microbrew business Bottom line, it's your beer. Do what you like and enjoy it.

 

[jwalker1140]

One way wastes effort, the other wastes time.

Can you elaborate?

It's been my experience that a secondary wastes both. It clearly takes more time. And because it didn't produce better beer, I concluded it was also a waste of effort. Again, YMMV.

 

[jethro55]

Jwalker,
I'm talkin' about a silent majority of bottlers that could care less about a vocal minority.

It is irrational and illogical that the goals and constraints of every home brewer are identical. Wait 4 weeks if it works for you - but that is in no way a decent solution for everyone. There are other ways that produce the same result.

 

[JustLooking]

There are many valid reasons to transfer your beer to a secondary. Clarity is not one of them unless you don't have the ability to cleanly rack your beer the first time.

 

[jethro55]

There are many valid reasons to transfer your beer to a secondary. Clarity is not one of them unless you don't have the ability to cleanly rack your beer the first time.

Agree. But bottle a primary only at 10 days and enjoy the dregs.

 

[jethro55]

(apologies for the typo in the title)

I have an IPA undergoing primary fermentation in my fermentation bucket right now. I usually transfer to a carboy for secondary fermentation, but after doing some reading I'm starting to see that two separate fermentations aren't really necessary. If this is the case, can I leave the beer in the bucket, or will it oxidize? Can single-stage fermentation only be done in a carboy?

It won't oxidize in the bucket. You can wait for it to clear in the bucket. That takes about 4 weeks. You can also tramsfer

 

[jwalker1140]

Granted, this picture shows one of my beers (the one of the left) that was packaged w/o secondary after 12 days, not 10, but there are no dregs there. It's actually clearer than the commercial version on the right.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f12/re...-clone-attempt-472081/index2.html#post6194052

To be clear, I never claimed all brewers should have the same goals, etc. I'm just sharing my personal experiences ... and taking issue with hyperbolic comments about _most_ people and the silent majority and whether or not they care about the vocal minority.

 

[JonM]

Here's a thread from a couple years ago providing an interview with Palmer and Jamil Z saying secondary isn't necessary. Nothing bad will happen to your beer if you leave it in primary for weeks or months.

Also, There are plenty of "is this infected" threads where the infection is started in the transfer to secondary and helped along by leaving headspace in the secondary.

The consensus around here seems to be that secondary doesn't provide any benefit that can't be had by an extended primary, and that secondary opens you up to oxidation and/or infection. But, to each his own.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f163/secondary-not-john-palmer-jamil-zainasheff-weigh-176837/

 

[jethro55]

That info is comforting to all that want to wait for a clearing. But there is no risk to contamination or oxidation unless the brewer ignores sanitation or bottling procedures. These are required either way. So the basis is really that modern yeasts are intolerant of autolysis. It means that waiting is OK.

The discussion is mute on bottling time.

 

[jethro55]

That info is comforting to all that want to wait for a clearing. But there is no risk to contamination or oxidation unless the brewer ignores sanitation or bottling procedures. These are required either way. So the basis is really that modern yeasts are intolerant of autolysis. It means that waiting is OK.

The discussion is mute on bottling time.

Secondary is a two week benefit minimum. Bonus- no goop.

There is no consensus around here. That would mean we all agree.

 

[passedpawn]

(apologies for the typo in the title)

I have an IPA undergoing primary fermentation in my fermentation bucket right now. I usually transfer to a carboy for secondary fermentation, but after doing some reading I'm starting to see that two separate fermentations aren't really necessary. If this is the case, can I leave the beer in the bucket, or will it oxidize? Can single-stage fermentation only be done in a carboy?

I've made beer both ways, with and without a secondary. In fact, the rule when I started was 1-2-3, or 1 week primary, 2 weeks secondary, 3 weeks in the bottle.

My ale process is now to allow 10-14 days for primary fermentation, then add gelatin and cold crash for 2 days to clear it. Then keg (or bottle). That's it. My beers are tasty and clear. I think most brewers do the same.

So, I don't do a secondary anymore. James Spencer of Basic Brewing radio did one of his somewhat scientific experiments and concluded that using a secondary will result in clearing a beer faster. But except for that time, I don't believe there was any other difference.

Regarding doing your primary in a bucket, yes, it's fine. Do your best not to open it too much once fermentation is done. I.e., once you're happy that fermentation is underway, just leave the lid on for 2 weeks then commence packaging. If you don't have a way to cold crash, then maybe waiting an extra week for letting the yeast to drop is a good idea.

 

[blackbeer]

i'm going to start drinking right out of the primary soon. ya, i'm edgy

 

[kev211]

I've made beer both ways, with and without a secondary. In fact, the rule when I started was 1-2-3, or 1 week primary, 2 weeks secondary, 3 weeks in the bottle.

My ale process is now to allow 10-14 days for primary fermentation, then add gelatin and cold crash for 2 days to clear it. Then keg (or bottle). That's it. My beers are tasty and clear. I think most brewers do the same.

So, I don't do a secondary anymore. James Spencer of Basic Brewing radio did one of his somewhat scientific experiments and concluded that using a secondary will result in clearing a beer faster. But except for that time, I don't believe there was any other difference.

Regarding doing your primary in a bucket, yes, it's fine. Do your best not to open it too much once fermentation is done. I.e., once you're happy that fermentation is underway, just leave the lid on for 2 weeks then commence packaging. If you don't have a way to cold crash, then maybe waiting an extra week for letting the yeast to drop is a good idea.

When you add gelatin prior to cold crashing, do you swirl it? How do you best mix it in without shaking the beer and adding oxygen? Do you cold crash as soon as adding the gelatin to the beer? By doing this can you just rack to keg and begin carbonation? I always added gelatin to my kegs then had to pump it out. Never even thought about adding it to the fermenter

 

[passedpawn]

When you add gelatin prior to cold crashing, do you swirl it? How do you best mix it in without shaking the beer and adding oxygen? Do you cold crash as soon as adding the gelatin to the beer? By doing this can you just rack to keg and begin carbonation? I always added gelatin to my kegs then had to pump it out. Never even thought about adding it to the fermenter

• I use 1/2 packet Knox unflavored gelatin per carboy (packets are 1/4 oz each).
• I add it to a solo cup of water, let it sit for 5 minutes to bloom, stir, then microwave til its hot. It will disolve and get clear when heated.
• This I pour right into the fermentors while they are still at ferment temps. Some people will say that you need to chill the beer first in order to elicit chill haze, and thus remove the haze. But in my experience I often end up with jello stuck to the sides of my fermentors when I chill first. So I don't. After adding, I reduce the temperature of my chamber to 33F.
• No, I don't swirl at all. I don't attempt to mix it. I just assume it mixes through the natural mixing of fluids.
• One or two days later, my carboys are super clear. Rack carefully to keg.

 

[kev211]

• I use 1/2 pack Knox unflavored gelatin per carboy (packets are 1/4 oz each).
• I add it to a solo cup of water, let it sit for 5 minutes to bloom, stir, then microwave til its hot. It will disolve and get clear when heated.
• This I pour right into the fermentors while they are still at ferment temps. Some people will say that you need to chill the beer first in order to elicit chill haze, and thus remove the haze. But in my experience I often end up with jello stuck to the sides of my fermentors when I chill first. So I don't. After adding, I reduce the temperature of my chamber to 33F.
• No, I don't swirl at all. I don't attempt to mix it. I just assume it mixes through the natural mixing of fluids.
• One or two days later, my carboys are super clear. Rack carefully to keg.

Awsum posum. Ill have to try it this way

 

[jethro55]

Years ago, about twenty years; I had an extended business travel to the desert regions of California. At coffee time each morning, I would add the coffeemate creamer and each time that I did, the classy dudes would ask me - "What is that stuff"? After a while, I caught on and looked at the ingredients in detail and never used that stuff again. So, in the same style, I ask; what is that stuff called gelatin?

 

[Siberian]

So, in the same style, I ask; what is that stuff called gelatin?

Collagen from various animal parts. It's also present in a lot of what you eat, assuming you eat meat.

Gelatin is just boil extracted collegen that has been filtered and concentrated.

 

[passedpawn]

Years ago, about twenty years; I had an extended business travel to the desert regions of California. At coffee time each morning, I would add the coffeemate creamer and each time that I did, the classy dudes would ask me - "What is that stuff"? After a while, I caught on and looked at the ingredients in detail and never used that stuff again. So, in the same style, I ask; what is that stuff called gelatin?

Gelatin is all natural, made from raw materials (typically from cows), and since it's super high in the amino acid glycine, it's very good for your liver function. If you're a drinker, and frequently challenge your liver, you might consider eating an 11g packet of gelatin daily. In other words, you should not be afraid of using gelatin in your beer.

 

[passedpawn]

It's also present in a lot of what you eat, assuming you eat meat.

It's used in a lot of non-meat products. Wiki it. Non-vegan though, for sure.

 

[jethro55]

Gelatin is a yellowish, odorless, and nearly tasteless substance that is obtained by prolonged boiling of skin, cartiledge, and bones from animals. It is made primarily from the stuff that the meat industry would throw away. We are talking about skin (lips, nostrils, and ********), horns, and bones, Yummy....let's clear our beer with it.

 

[balrog]

(apologies for the typo in the title)

I have an IPA undergoing primary fermentation in my fermentation bucket right now. I usually transfer to a carboy for secondary fermentation, but after doing some reading I'm starting to see that two separate fermentations aren't really necessary. If this is the case, can I leave the beer in the bucket, or will it oxidize? Can single-stage fermentation only be done in a carboy?

Ok, I'm relatively new to this (1.5yr, 30 batches) but my equipment and brewing schedule is what I've decided to use to determine whether to use a "secondary". I only have one 6.5gal Ale Pail, and for reasons of not wanting to worry so much with blowoff tubes, I use that for all primary fermentation. If I have the chance to brew again before I've had 2-3wks to finish and bottle, then I transfer to a 5G "secondary" which is really more of a "He's too lazy to take the time to bottle right now" vessel, where there will be little headspace. Just one man's opinion.

 

[passedpawn]

Gelatin is a yellowish, odorless, and nearly tasteless substance that is obtained by prolonged boiling of skin, cartiledge, and bones from animals. It is made primarily from the stuff that the meat industry would throw away. We are talking about skin (lips, nostrils, and ********), horns, and bones, Yummy....let's clear our beer with it.

Then don't. I'm not sure what your problem is, but you need to chill and probably get out of the beginner's forum. I'm helping people here, you are certainly not.

 

[1977Brewer]

Never ever put anything in your body that might give someone else the ickies. Ever.

 

[Newsman]

You can also get Agar, which is vegan. It's made from seaweed. It'll do the same thing I believe.

 

[jethro55]

Then don't. I'm not sure what your problem is, but you need to chill and probably get out of the beginner's forum. I'm helping people here, you are certainly not.

We can all find another process different than secondary. These alternates have more issues and they need to understand them particularly related to bottling. The alternates are a waste of time and sometimes put unneccessary **** in the beer.

 

[passedpawn]

We can all find another process different than secondary. These alternates have more issues and they need to understand them particularly related to bottling. The alternates are a waste of time and sometimes put unneccessary **** in the beer.

Are you saying using gelatin is a waste of time compared to using a secondary? Please explain why.

Also, are you suggesting there's an issue with bottling after using gelatin? That's 100% wrong, but you seem to want to say something, why don't you just say it.

By the way, I have no problem with anybody using a secondary, it's just not my way.

 

[jethro55]

Are you saying using gelatin is a waste of time compared to using a secondary? Please explain why.

Also, are you suggesting there's an issue with bottling after using gelatin? That's 100% wrong, but you seem to want to say something, why don't you just say it.

By the way, I have no problem with anybody using a secondary, it's just not my way.

No, I am saying that gelatin is crap,

Same as before, putting crap in beer is unnecessary.

If one way is better than another, then it needs to have a reason that is valid in every case, rather than personal preferences and constraints.

 

[jwalker1140]

We can all find another process different than secondary. These alternates have more issues and they need to understand them particularly related to bottling. The alternates are a waste of time and sometimes put unneccessary **** in the beer.

I'm not trying to sound like a jerk, but I've read your posts throughout this thread and I'm having a real hard time understanding what the heck you're talking about.

You've been vaguely critical of people who don't secondary (at least I think that's what you've been critical of), without actually sharing your first-hand experience.

Do you secondary? If so, why? Have you tried going straight from primary to bottle? If so, what was your experience? What was your timeline, etc.?

 

[passedpawn]

I'm not trying to sound like a jerk, but I've read your posts throughout this thread and I'm having a real hard time understanding what the heck you're talking about.

You've been vaguely critical of people who don't secondary (at least I think that's what you've been critical of), without actually sharing your first-hand experience.

Do you secondary? If so, why? Have you tried going straight from primary to bottle? If so, what was your experience? What was your timeline, etc.?

He was here to bash and argue. I think he was a proponent of using a secondary, but like you said he was always vague ( and derogatory, and basically argumentative). Anyway, he's done here.

The consensus opinion now (and I agree with this) is that secondaries add risk of airborne infection, add risk of oxidation, and have little benefit. So many brewers don't use them anymore. However, as with most things, experiment for yourself. It's not a hard experiment to split a batch and do it both ways at the same time.

Also, you're looking at the largest homebrewing knowledge base in the world. There are almost 500,000 threads on this forum now (from about 200,000 members). Tons of information out there.

 

[wyobrewer1]

I only secondary my IPAs and that is due to dry hopping. I've heard that the yeast/trub can absorb some of the hop aroma if you dry hop in primary. How true is this? I don't know, but I've always done a secondary to dry hop. Haven't had any problems with oxidation, but I do always worry about it.

 

[passedpawn]

I only secondary my IPAs and that is due to dry hopping. I've heard that the yeast/trub can absorb some of the hop aroma if you dry hop in primary. How true is this? I don't know, but I've always done a secondary to dry hop. Haven't had any problems with oxidation, but I do always worry about it.

I think I heard Jamil et. al. talking about the yeast removing some of the hop oils from the beer. I consider those guys bible, so right I guess that might be a concern. But after you've brewed for a while, you get a feel for your hop utilization and compensate in your recipe. E.g., I use one of those hop spider bags hanging in my boil pot. It probably has a negative effect on my hop utilization, but I've been doing this a long time and I have a minor adjustment in Beersmith for that. Anyway, I make a LOT of pale ales and IPAs, all, dry-hopped, with just the primary fermentor, without any problem.

I think a big argument for using a secondary is to remove the trub from the beer for extended fermentations. Trub material is mostly fatty lipids, which are proteins created by the yeast during fermentation (and maybe during the hot break in the boil, not sure). They are very susceptible to oxidation and related off flavors. 2 or 3 weeks is no problem, but longer can be. That's when I rack to secondary. I occasionally make sour beers that I keep in the carboy for many months, and they go into secondary fermentors.

For long fermentations (many months to years), the yeast do indeed die when they internally release digestive enzymes, digestive processes that kill the cell. It's called autolysis. In beer that's a bad flavor. You don't want that

 

[sompls]

(apologies for the typo in the title)

I have an IPA undergoing primary fermentation in my fermentation bucket right now. I usually transfer to a carboy for secondary fermentation, but after doing some reading I'm starting to see that two separate fermentations aren't really necessary. If this is the case, can I leave the beer in the bucket, or will it oxidize? Can single-stage fermentation only be done in a carboy?

I am by no means an expert but I'll try to reply to your question
Nope, you don't "need" to transfer...but you can...if you want...or not! In my experience, after reading just like you a bunch of posts about no benefits to transferring, I stopped....and while I certainly do not have any evidence that my beer is better or worse by leaving it in primary for the duration, I do know that it is as clear (if that's what you're after) as any beer out there (I usually primary for 2-3 weeks or so...sort of depends on what else is going on in life...and then dry hop for a few days or so and cold crash...for a few days or so . It's one less step in the process and in all honesty in my opinion there is no benefit to transferring...but that's my opinion and it really all comes down to what you want to do. You should try it both ways and see what works for you.
Happy brewing!

 

[ol-hazza]

We can all find another process different than secondary. These alternates have more issues and they need to understand them particularly related to bottling. The alternates are a waste of time and sometimes put unneccessary **** in the beer.

Could you elaborate on the issues of using gelatin and alternatives?