DITCHES (Dual Immersion Thermal Coil Heat Exchange System)

[Damonic]

HOLY CRAP! Those diagrams rule...

 

[CBBaron]

I like it but I don't see a need for the dubble cooling thingy. I think a good plate or CFC whirlpooled back in would do it just fine and less to deal with.

This design seems to have plenty of redundant systems.
2 coils where 1 would be sufficient
4 heat sources where 2 would be sufficient

However why should you settle for sufficient?

Personally I prefer KISS and this does not seem simple to me, however I do believe it would be effective.

Really if you are not going to use the Herms for steps then the coil in the HLT is not necessary and would save you a significant amount of plumbing. Just add some insulation to the MLT and you probably won't have to touch the heat. Also using two heat sources on the HLT seems pretty redundant. A little insulation again will help you keep stable temps without the need for the electric element.
If you do eliminate the coil in the HLT/ice bucket, then you should increase the length of the coil in the boil kettle to allow for quicker cooling.

This is the engineer in me trying to eliminate unnecessary extras. If you want them then go for it.

Still I am definitely drooling.
Craig

 

[TommyBoy]

Out of curiosity, why do you have sanitary connections from your kettle that go from clover w/ female NPT-SS elbow w/compression fitting instead of a clover w/ 3/4" barb? Wouldn't adding a threaded compression fitting between the hose and the clover take away from the purpose of the sanitary connection?

 

[Boerderij_Kabouter]

CB- I have considered removing the HERMS coil from the HLT... but my original intent was to be able to use the system however I see fit. I.e., if I want to use HERMS for step mashing on one beer, RIMS for another (direct heat on my system), Infusion for another, or any combination of systems, this rig should be able to accomplish it. I don't really know if I will end up using all the features, but I will have the option if I wish. I also, think the cooling arrangement will kick some major butt.. especially for getting down to lager temps.

Tommy- Good question! I am not using the clovers for their sanitary properties. I have enough threads spread over my rig that I don't think having one sanitary connection would get me very far The reason I am using those is for cost economy (believe it or not). It is a rather cheap way to form a solid connection. Once the kettles are installed the should be locked in place. My original idea was to use cam-lock fittings, but these are way cheaper and cheaper than any other alternative I could find.

 

[kal]

Few questions for ya!

- Why 3/4" all around instead of 1/2"? Are you worried about clogging?

- Where are you sourcing your stainless tubing to use for your HERMS coil and BK coil?

- Are you seriously going with the stainless head March pumps? While everyone has different tolerences to spending )), I'm trying to decide if the extra cost is worth it to go pretty much all stainless in my setup...

Kal

 

[Boerderij_Kabouter]

1) I am going 3/4 because I am hoping that this extra volume will help prime the pumps marginally better, it provides a larger supply to the pump inlet, and the inlet for the stainless pump heads is 3/4. The price difference is rather marginal if you source the parts right. I already have all my 3/4 compression fittings... if you search Ebay for "swagelok" and have a bit a patience, you can easily get these fittings for way under half price.

2) I found my 50' 1/2" stainless coil on Ebay for $30. They don't come up often, but if you have the patience, they come up sometimes. Otherwise, just get it from a local metal supplier like Metal Xpress, etc.

3) I am going with the stainless pump heads. If I am investing this much to have all the rest stainless, it seems silly to me to use anything non-stainless. Bling bling baby!

The way to do it is to bargain a percentage of your budget with your SWMBO. For example, I get 5% of our spending money for brewing and personal use. Slowly but steadily, this build will happen!

 

[kal]

1) I am going 3/4 because I am hoping that this extra volume will help prime the pumps marginally better, it provides a larger supply to the pump inlet, and the inlet for the stainless pump heads is 3/4. The price difference is rather marginal if you source the parts right. I already have all my 3/4 compression fittings... if you search Ebay for "swagelok" and have a bit a patience, you can easily get these fittings for way under half price.

Thanks. I've already bought 50' of quality 1/2" silicone hose so I'll stick with 1/2". Didn't realize either that the SS pump head is 3/4" and not 1/2".

3) I am going with the stainless pump heads. If I am investing this much to have all the rest stainless, it seems silly to me to use anything non-stainless. Bling bling baby!

Ok. I'll consider it. Not quite at that buying stage yet. (Waiting for my Blichmann pots to arrive first .... )

The way to do it is to bargain a percentage of your budget with your SWMBO. For example, I get 5% of our spending money for brewing and personal use. Slowly but steadily, this build will happen!

Makes sense. Luckily I'm not really on a budget. Still, I don't want to spend money needlessly if it can be avoided of course. If I can get away with under $5K for the whole setup I'll be happy. I don't think it'll get that high though.

Kal

 

[Boerderij_Kabouter]

5 keys is a high budget. The system I have shown here would come in around 4 if you bought everything brand new today. I am waiting on the best deals I can find on everything and plan to do it for significantly less.

 

[kal]

Agreed. It is high. Hell, you can brew great beer for only a few hundred dollars but that's not the point for many of us (yourself included obviously as you already have likely a great setup). I'm an engineer by background and want something that not only looks good but that is easy to use and that I can be proud of. For many of us it's not about saving money obviously either. You can buy a lot of beer for $5K.

Good luck with the build! So far all I have is a grain mill, 50' of silicone hose, and Blichmann pots on order. Lots more to go...

Kal

 

[Boerderij_Kabouter]

Nail + Head =

Agreed. It is high. Hell, you can brew great beer for only a few hundred dollars but that's not the point for many of us (yourself included obviously as you already have likely a great setup). I'm an engineer by background and want something that not only looks good but that is easy to use and that I can be proud of. For many of us it's not about saving money obviously either. You can buy a lot of beer for $5K.

Good luck with the build! So far all I have is a grain mill, 50' of silicone hose, and Blichmann pots on order. Lots more to go...

Kal

I have a fine two tier three keggle system now. This build is so I can be happy about cleaning it and looking at it. Also, I do think I will have better control over my process with the new rig.

 

[brauhausjoe]

Also, I coiled the 50' of 1/2" stainless that I have. NO PROBLEM

Were did you get the stainless tubing from? The 1/2 inch tubing I saw would run about $400 bones...

 

[Boerderij_Kabouter]

Ebay... I searched "(stainless, SS) (coil, tube, tubing)" everyday for a couple months until I found it. They come up occasionally... I think I got it for about $30 or similar.

 

[sleepystevenson]

Wow! I can see you've been quite busy lately! I have been myself and haven't spent much time around the forums here. Looks awesome, man! Very nice work with the drawings, plans, etc. :rockin:

I bet you are getting more and more excited every day.

Personally, I am more a KISS kinda guy, as you have seen from my build. Form follows function. Of course, that said, I didn't have the budget that you have, either, so....

I also agree that cleaning may get to be a sizable chore with as much stuff as you have going on there. I have never really (yet) had a need for a grant in my system.

Good Luck, buddy!

 

[Boerderij_Kabouter]

I have never really (yet) had a need for a grant in my system.

Good Luck, buddy!

Thanks for the kind words!

I have removed the grant from my system design as well. I can always add it back later if I need to.

 

[kal]

Personally, I am more a KISS kinda guy, as you have seen from my build. Form follows function. Of course, that said, I didn't have the budget that you have, either, so....

Based on your gallery pics, your setup seems pretty advanced I'd say! Do you have any information that describes your setup and how you "kept it simple"? I'm always looking for new ideas (and I'm a KISS type of guy too).

Kal

 

[RonRock]

Any build pics yet? I'm curious how you wrapped the Keggles.

 

[kal]

Yes, curious too Justin if you've made any advances or have pictures of your setup yet...

Kal

 

[Boerderij_Kabouter]

I wish....

 

[kal]

Justin: Why stainless for the heat transfer coils? Why not copper? I thought copper had better heat transfer than stainless.

Kal

 

[Boerderij_Kabouter]

Hey Kal,

Copper does have better conductivity. However, with the thin walls we are dealing with, the conductivity of the metal will have very little affect on the heat transfer process. The temperature differential between the cooling liquid and the hot wort and the ability to transfer the heat through out the wort mass (via circulation in my case) is much more important than the metal used.

I chose SS because in my system the coils will be a permanent fixture. I am worried about being able to get the coils clean and maintain a sanitary environment. SS is the best candidate because I can use caustics and steam cleaning and whatever else I need without fear or dielectric corrosion or other negative affects to the system.

Plus, I have an addiction to stainless and I found the coil on EBay for very cheap.

I am so jealous of your build! I am hoping to get my first BoilerMaker and my 1/2 compression fittings by the end of February or the middle of March. Then I can finish my boil kettle.

 

[Boerderij_Kabouter]

Update. I have switched gears a bit due to the lack of availability of QD's from MoreBeer. I am now using all Tri-clover fittings for my connections. It will not be a sanitary system (it will have threads in many places), but it should be easy to use and completely bomb proof.

Anyway, here is my new parts list and purchase order:

Here is the updated schematic:

And here is my still to purchase view:

 

[kal]

Nice!

Still going with that bendy plastic Loc-Line stuff for the sparge arm?

The sparge arm is the last thing I need. Everything else has arrived so far. I would prefer something stainless that is height adjustable but I'm at a loss... What other sparge arm options have you looked at? Just curious.

I think for the first few batches I may go the "Sabco" method:

The simplest 'sparge arm' I've seen is the Sabco method. They use silicone tubing, long enough to curl around the circumference of the tun, then the point down into the grain bed. You would think introducing the sparge water this way would cause channeling, but they cite a lot of research and trials that give no indication of channeling or inefficiency. Sometimes simple is good I spoze. Here is a picture of the Sabco method, when the tun is full the tubing mostly floats and the tip will naturally go below the wort level just a bit.

Other than the QD's and the propane vs electric my setup's almost identical so far... so good work!

Kal

 

[Boerderij_Kabouter]

I am up in the air about the sparge arm. John Beere, who I took the idea from, said his has formed some cracks over time but that he is still happy with it. I don't know if that sounds like something I want to deal with.

The sparge arm will be my last purchase as well and at this point I think I am just going to stay with my manual sparge application method. I have discussed it with Menschmachine and we think it may be the best sparge method available for homebrewers with setups similar to ours.

Basically, what I do now is just use a straight section of silicon tube and disperse my sparge water over the surface of the grain manually. I use the stream of sparge water to break up the surface of the grain bed and to evenly distribute the flow. This avoids channelling and in both Mensch and my experience it allows for very fast fly sparging with good efficiency and wort quality.

 

[kal]

Basically, what I do now is just use a straight section of silicon tube and disperse my sparge water over the surface of the grain manually. I use the stream of sparge water to break up the surface of the grain bed and to evenly distribute the flow. This avoids channelling and in both Mensch and my experience it allows for very fast fly sparging with good efficiency and wort quality.

Interesting. Good to know. I'll by fly sparging too I think since I have two pumps like yourself.

Would be nice to have something a bit more automated though. Moving the tobe around manually for 60-90 minutes during sparge has to be pretty boring!

What about prior 60-90 minute recirc (vorlauf) of the mash? You going to just rest the hose on the grain bed with the end curved like in my pic above? I'm assuming this would create some circular water flow on top of the grain bed which would hopefully result in water passing through the grain bed evenly too (no channelling).

 

[Boerderij_Kabouter]

During recirc, I just put the hose on top like the Sabco system does. It seems to work just fine.

The sparge system I use now is nice because it seems that a long slow fly sparge is not necessary. I sparge out my full 12.5 gallons in about 40 minutes. Mensch goes even faster finishing in about 30 minutes. I dial my system in at 75% but usually end up closer to 80%. I don't want higher efficiency and try to keep it low. Mensch is all about the efficiency and runs his system at about 90%.

We think the reason we are able to maintain high efficiency at such high speeds is because of the disturbed surface of the grain bed, and the micro channelling that happens all over the mash with this method. All our evidence is anecdotal, but it works well. Also, I stumbled on the idea because my LHBS guy told me it is what he does. So at least a couple other people are doing it with success.

 

[kal]

Sounds like you've got it already working nicely on your current system - so why even bother considering anything different (like Loc-Line) for the new setup? What's it going to get you that you don't have now? Freedom to do something else for that 40 minutes because you won't be doing it manually?

Kal

 

[beerocd]

This design seems to have plenty of redundant systems.
2 coils where 1 would be sufficient
4 heat sources where 2 would be sufficient

This is the engineer in me trying to eliminate unnecessary extras. If you want them then go for it.

BUT IT GOES TO ELEVEN! :rockin:

-OCD

 

[Boerderij_Kabouter]

BUT IT GOES TO ELEVEN! :rockin:

-OCD

What does that mean?

 

[IrregularPulse]

I saw this post in another thread about a Stout recipe and was also confused.
I think it means it is good/cool/extreme in the sense of a radio volume knob going to 11 and not just 10

 

[llazy_llama]

Pretty much, yeah. It came from the movie This is Spinal Tap where a fictional metal band used a particular brand of amplifier because the volume knobs went up to 11 instead of the standard 10. When asked why not just use a louder amplifier turned up to 10, the guitarist replies "...but... this one goes to eleven."