Dissecting A Therminator

CornyKegs 728
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korndog

korndog

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I would like to know if anyone is interested in such a science project. My idea is to buy a new Therminator for my brew club (or anyone with a well used unit) and saw theirs apart. (Yikes!)

Once and for all, I would like to see what a well worn PC looks like even if it is properly cleaned. If anyone is interested in participating for the sake of science and better brewing, please PM me. Vendors willing to sell 1 unit at cost, please advise.

Cheers
KD
"Willing to ruin a perfectly good piece of equipment"
 
watching this thread closely. Post pics when you're done! I've always been curious what the inside looks like.
 
KD, I think this is a good idea. One tweak if I may.... perhaps you should get anew one (hopefully at cost) and cut up yours. That way you can comment one exactly what unit has been through (e.g., how many brews, cleaning procedure, and whatnot).
 
+1 on cutting a well used one that has been cleaned in the way most homebrewers do it....that way we can apply the findings.....
 
I'm posting so I can follow this. I have been so paranoid I quit using my Therminator for a while. Now I am back with cleaner wort going through it and still wonder how clean I get it.
 
I read a thread somewhere about someone putting theirs in a pressure cooker and noting all the crap that came out of it. It wouldn't be nearly the same as cutting one apart but you should be able to get a good idea by how dirty the water becomes...
 
I put mine in a pressure canner and didn't put anything inside it. It says to sanitize with the input and outputs toward the top and I figured it was the steam not the water that did the sanitizing so I left it out. Maybe I need to rethink that next time.
 
If a bunch of people chipped in to buy someone a new Therminator to replace their heavily used one, we'd all gain the benefit of the results without having to spend $200. The more heavily used the better.

I can't believe no one has done this yet considering all the questions about cleaning that have been posed.
 
I would like to see the results of this experiment not only for sanitation reasons but I would love to see the guts of one of these things. if you go through with it see if you can get some good shots of its construction as well as whatever crud collects in it.
 
mysteryberto said:
I'm curious to see how this turns out. The main reason I've been sticking with an immersion chiller is you know when it's clean.
Click to expand...

...and you can fix it if it isn't. Plus, no need to pump/siphon/whatever hot wort. My kitchen sink is across from my stove, but I have an old typewriter table (sturdy, for those heavy electric typewriters) with wheels so I lift the hot pot off the stove onto the (steel) table, roll it over to the sink, and hook up the chiller. By the time I'm moving wort around, it's cool.
 
I'll add something else to the pot. Occasionally, I check out one of the 3 or 4 "other" prominent HB forums, and I've seen threads that look just like this one. People were just as interested, but the deal never materialized. I think it would be a major breakthrough in homebrewing tech, kinda like the whirlpool IC....don't you?

If HBT can do an 08/08/08 swap, and an 09/09/09 barleywine, why can't we do important research?

If we could locate a plate chiller (doesn't have to be as expensive as a therminator) that had been in some way verified as having been used in the standard HB fashion, (10-20 gals/month for a year or more, pre-filtered in the kettle, and cleaned in a traditional manner via backflushing, PBW, etc.) I'd be willing to support replacing someone's sacrificial chiller as long as the aftermath was thoroughly documented.

Surely, something like a Shirron @ $85 wouldn't be hard to replace, right?

What does everyone else think?
 
Thanks for all the support on this. I am going to try getting one at cost from my local shop to replace the club unit if they care to part with it. If not, we can certainly come up with a good test unit from this board. I don't necessarily have to be the dissector either. If someone is better equipped to section this baby, then that works for me. I haven't seen the posts on the other boards, but I can pretty much guarantee that this will get done one way or another here. I will report back on the replacement unit by tomorrow.

KD
 
A friend of mine showed me a picture of a old I believe Presto pressure cooker that has the plastic cap welded shut with a 20 psi pressure relief added with the center stem drilled and taped for a 3/8" NPT nipple and ball valve.
When it starts to pop off steam the valve is opened to a flexable stainless hose to the cooler. He was told it is flushed app 20 seconds each direction and yes the collecting bucket ends up with some debris after a couple of brewing sessions. Medically clean I would think and a cheap cooler cleaner.
 
That's probably a good way to sterilize, but what about bacteria encased in gross matter? That's why they (surgical personnel) clean scrupulously, THEN sterilize via autoclave (which is what you're suggesting). Now, let's be very clear here......sterilization is NOT a requirement....only sanitization (via starsan et al)....

BUT what happens when you have a piece of gear that (potentially) systematically contaminates every beer you brew? That's what we wanna know.
 
lrr81765 said:
Just an idea- wouldn't an old Pepsi/Coke plate chiller operatate on the same prinipals? Would that be easier to acquire? Kinda like this
1
pepsi 4 head FOUNTAIN MACHINE DISPENSER SODA - eBay (item 120302987526 end time Sep-14-08 10:00:49 PDT)
Click to expand...

Pepsi can clean a penny. I reckon we need the same liquid as the one we are testing for here.

Actually, I only made this post so that I can keep track when the pics arrive. :)
 
korndog said:
Somebody can write John and ask him, but he might just view it as a witch hunt.
Click to expand...

It's not likely to help his business.....I'm sure he makes a good slice of his profits from therminators.....

We gotta go independent on this one......
 
This would be nice to do with any plate chiller, does not need to be a therminator, though that would be cool to see the inside of. I think the Chyco CFC can be cleaned better than a plate chiller since I can actually push (new) earplugs through it to somewhat scrub.
 
ScubaSteve said:
That's probably a good way to sterilize, but what about bacteria encased in gross matter? That's why they (surgical personnel) clean scrupulously, THEN sterilize via autoclave (which is what you're suggesting). Now, let's be very clear here......sterilization is NOT a requirement....only sanitization (via starsan et al)....

BUT what happens when you have a piece of gear that (potentially) systematically contaminates every beer you brew? That's what we wanna know.
Click to expand...

That sounds like a brewing system thats been neglected, put away dirty many times beyond pig pen standards or has a bad flaws within like pockets or threads collecting crap during every brew session. My guess at this moment. That type of system sounds like it needs an engine steam cleaner blasting the whole brewing system, I mean with steam not just hot water like some engine steam degreasers.

Sorry I mentioned the home made cooler cleaner system, sounds like this wasn't the answer you wanted. My friend paid $25 for that sludge filled cooler, ran just over 2 gallons of water turned to steam thru it with steam exiting the outlet plus a direction change steam blast again. If crap can stand up to steam like this and still destroy brews I don't no what to tell you except replace that item or bake it at 450*F in a big oven for two hours. Super bugs in the brewing system needing radiation zap?
 
It's probably fine either way.....if you put it in the oven or force steam through, you're going to kill most of what's in there. My issue is that there's still going to be gunk in there that acts like food/nucleation sites for bacteria. Then, that stuff dislodges as you cool a batch, and it goes into your new beer. Again, probably not a big deal...it's on a small scale and beer has been made for a looooong time in less than sterile conditions. The billions of yeast, low pH, and alcohol content are very prohibitive to bacterial growth.

I just want to do the experiment out of sheer curiosity.....it drives me nuts not being able to see inside a plate chiller, that's all :D
 
ScubaSteve said:
It's probably fine either way.....if you put it in the oven or force steam through, you're going to kill most of what's in there. My issue is that there's still going to be gunk in there that acts like food/nucleation sites for bacteria. Then, that stuff dislodges as you cool a batch, and it goes into your new beer. Again, probably not a big deal...it's on a small scale and beer has been made for a looooong time in less than sterile conditions. The billions of yeast, low pH, and alcohol content are very prohibitive to bacterial growth.

I just want to do the experiment out of sheer curiosity.....it drives me nuts not being able to see inside a plate chiller, that's all :D
Click to expand...

I agree. That's basically how I feel about it.
 
did anyone notice that that pepsi machine comes with 3 cornies and a huge co2 tank for 99 bucks if anyone is near they should pick that up for sure
 
You oughta post that on the classifieds, and I'm sure someone will.....
 
What I would suggest is for someone to come forward with a plate chiller that they've run at least 200 gallons through. Once that is established, those interested could donate money to the cause until the stated value of that chiller is reached. The money is sent to the owner, the chiller is sent to someone with an acetylene torch so it could be debrazed. If the owner of the chiller thinks it's a good cause, they'd probably take a little less than what it would cost to replace.

Just my 2-cents.
 
I don't know if I'd torch it apart since you'd be burning whatever residue is left inside. I think cutting it open right across the plates would be better, then looking inside. Probably use a band saw or something would be best, not sure.
 
I would think cutting the outside edge would be better to release the plates into individuals. I don't know how they are held together inside, but looking at mine I would think the outside edge is the only place they are connected other than the wort and water ports.
 
WortMonger said:
I would think cutting the outside edge would be better to release the plates into individuals. I don't know how they are held together inside, but looking at mine I would think the outside edge is the only place they are connected other than the wort and water ports.
Click to expand...

Sounds right. Peel it like a potato and you should get loose plates to examine. Maybe.

I'll donate my share for Harv's chiller. if everyone lists what they would be willing to donate for this experiment, we can get an idea how to proceed. It would be nice if we could get a shop to sell us a replacement at cost.

I'll start with $25.00.
 
Mark me down for $15 and I'll cover shipping it to whoever is going to be doing the "surgery".

Speaking of which do we have someone for that yet?
 

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