Disadvantages of Not Fermenting "on" the Skin ?

[Blue-Frog]

The receipe I use for blackberry wine calls for fermenting on the pulp but for reasons of convience, I have been considering separating the juice first and just fermenting that. Are there any good reasons not to ?

I can imagine a few areas could be affected, color, nutrient levels etc., but wonder if anyone has any experience with "on" vs "off the skin/pulp" fermentation of blackberries or other fruit ?

 

[bernardsmith]

I have found that using the entire fruit - including skins - adds far more complex flavors. Cannot say I have "tested" this with blackberries but every time I have used juice expressed from fruit or have used the whole fruit the whole fruit flavors have been far better.

 

[jgmillr1]

I have always fermented blackberries on skin. Not only do you get better juice extraction by those fantastic little yeasties, but you extract a little tannin from the skins which helps with initial color and color stability. One major problem with blackberry wines made from juice is significant sedimentation after 6 months due to anthocyanin color pigments dropping out. Tannin helps stabilize the anthocyanin in solution just like in red wine and prevents this.

 

[Yooper]

I have always fermented blackberries on skin. Not only do you get better juice extraction by those fantastic little yeasties, but you extract a little tannin from the skins which helps with initial color and color stability. One major problem with blackberry wines made from juice is significant sedimentation after 6 months due to anthocyanin color pigments dropping out. Tannin helps stabilize the anthocyanin in solution just like in red wine and prevents this.

Exactly. There are times when you can use just juice (on something like, oh, cranberry I guess), but you get so much from using the whole fruit.

Even for my apple wine, I use the whole fruit because while apple juice wine is fine, the whole apple wine has a bit of complexity and tannin that you don't get from the juice.

The really interesting thing about blackberry opposed to other berry wines is that it can be done as a dry red that can stand up on its own as a great wine. It holds its color if done right (as above), and not as fruity as blueberry and strawberry wine because of the richness. I even oak some of my blackberry wine, and it's phenomenal. My blueberry wine, not so much.

 

[Blue-Frog]

Do you belive tannin cannot be extracted along with the juice? Somehow I sense that my extraction is getting it, but I agree I would prefer to ferment on the skin based on the belief that it is better; in the mean time, the consensus is to keep a look out for excessive pigment drop and lower complexity (and perhaps body?)... if so I think I will be ok.

I would like to try oak... never had any experience with that... What are the choice options? Does it have to be any particular source? Can it be a local source, or is it best to start with a "brand name" oak? Yooper, How do you oak your blackberry?

 

[jgmillr1]

Do you belive tannin cannot be extracted along with the juice?

Very little tannin is extracted during pressing. For reference, consider how many tannic white wines you may have tasted (which of course are pressed prior to fermentation) and that many wineries go for extended maceration of the red wines after fermentation is complete to further extract tannin from the skins.

 

[Yooper]

Do you belive tannin cannot be extracted along with the juice? Somehow I sense that my extraction is getting it, but I agree I would prefer to ferment on the skin based on the belief that it is better; in the mean time, the consensus is to keep a look out for excessive pigment drop and lower complexity (and perhaps body?)... if so I think I will be ok.

I would like to try oak... never had any experience with that... What are the choice options? Does it have to be any particular source? Can it be a local source, or is it best to start with a "brand name" oak? Yooper, How do you oak your blackberry?

As was mentioned, white wines (from grapes) are pressed and then fermented, to avoid color and tannins from the grapes.

As far as my blackberry wine, the recipe is here: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=31294 The recipe itself comes right form Jack Keller, but my notes on oaking (length and type) are at the bottom. This is probably my best wine out of all the wines I make. I have gone to 6 pounds per gallon, though, for my fuller bodied blackberry wines.

 

[Blue-Frog]

jgmillr1,

Humm, actually this season I am extracting the fruit slowly with steam....

Yooper, i noticed they offer different Roasts...
Do you have a favorite or a suggestion? Oh, I see you use Medium Toast; ok sounds good.

I think I'd like to go with the smoother French rather than the American to start with... unfortunately my local supplier does not list which variety American or French Oak he is selling... If it is American Oak, how much longer do you think I should expect to bulk age before, uh, the happiness sets in?

Thanks Yooper.