Different beers and how much CO2 pressure they want

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deadboy

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I've only been brewing for about 6 months and know only enough to know I need to know a lot more. So far I've had good luck and everything has tasted great. After a mammoth bottling session (11ish gallons in to 120 bottles) I decided it was time to start kegging. I've got 3 batches kegged now, an altbier, an IPA, and a stout. The latter is on Nitrogen and the others on straight CO2. I'm having problems with the two on the CO2. I'm having a hard time finding a pressure where one or the other doesn't foam up yet high enough that it has the proper carbonation levels.

Is there a good reference, pref on the web or a book if nesc, to explain what various brews need in the way of CO2 pressure for the keg? I'd also like to know which beers in particular benefit from Nitrogen. Is it just stouts? I know Boddintons Pub Ale also uses a nitrogen widget in their cans similar to the ones guiness uses. I'm not sure why other than the smoothness of the gas. Does that mean I could use Nitrogen for all the beers and get better results or...

HELP! :drunk:
 
How long are your beer lines? Too short and you'll get tons of foam in the glass. General rule is one foot of hose per one psi of CO2 the keg is on.
 
That chart seems to be for force carbonating, which is good to know. It's not what I was looking for though. I mean like does a pilsner require a different pressure to get good carbonation out of the tap than an ale or a bock?

Everything I've been able to find usually says set the CO2 at about 12psi and you should be good. That tends to make my altbier foam up pretty bad though. And I'm finding that the stout seems to do pretty well with 20psi from the nitrogen tank.

I'm sure there's a better way to determine the right levels than trial and error.
 
That chart seems to be for force carbonating, which is good to know. It's not what I was looking for though. I mean like does a pilsner require a different pressure to get good carbonation out of the tap than an ale or a bock?

Everything I've been able to find usually says set the CO2 at about 12psi and you should be good. That tends to make my altbier foam up pretty bad though. And I'm finding that the stout seems to do pretty well with 20psi from the nitrogen tank.

I'm sure there's a better way to determine the right levels than trial and error.

If you look at the color chart each color corrisponds with the type of beer, temp and pressure for said beer.
 
How long are your beer lines? Too short and you'll get tons of foam in the glass. General rule is one foot of hose per one psi of CO2 the keg is on.

I read that for most brews you want at least 6' for the smaller liquid lines. I'm not sure about the stout tap because it came with the hose clamped on but the other 3 have a little over 6'. The Altbier foams up pretty bad and the IPA comes out smooth. They both have the same co2 and the same length of liquid lines.
 
If you look at the color chart each color corrisponds with the type of beer temp and pressure for said beer.

No, I get that. But the chart says it's for force carbonation. I took that to mean that if you want to expedite the carbonation process rather than just waiting for the priming sugars to work then you hook up the CO2 at those levels for that type of beer. But you never force carbonate with beer gas because it's too low in CO2 to be effective.

I'm talking about the kegs in my keezer for drinking rather than the ones I'm racking.
 
Ok you are talking about naturally carb kegs and serving pressure then. The serving pressure should match that of the carbonation of the beer. If you have a beer that is say at 2.4 volumns of pressure, naturally carb'd. You would want that same pressure as your serving setting. So 12lbs at 41*f. If it is lower, your beer will want to level out with the pressure in the keg and be under carb'd.
 
I read that for most brews you want at least 6' for the smaller liquid lines. I'm not sure about the stout tap because it came with the hose clamped on but the other 3 have a little over 6'. The Altbier foams up pretty bad and the IPA comes out smooth. They both have the same co2 and the same length of liquid lines.

Your lines are WAY too short then. The serving pressure (it's what maintains carbonation in the keg as you drain it) is what I was referring to for the lines. If you have the kegs at 12PSI, then you should have at least 10' lines there. IMO/IME, 6' lines WILL give you massive amounts of foam/head in the glass, and not much brew.

Of course, since you're using priming sugar to carbonate the kegs, you COULD be over carbonated too. Remove the gas feed from the keg(s) and pull the relief valve 2-3 times a day for 2-3 days then connect the gas line back up and pull a pint.

IMO, once you have the ability to carbonate with CO2 (force carbonation, NOT talking about rapid carbonation in minutes/hours, but about two weeks here) there's really no benefit from carbonating via priming sugar. For one thing, going with forced carbonation you can obtain precise carbonation results that are elusive (at best) for many of us. You also eliminate (or reduce in the extreme) the amount of sediment in the keg when you don't use priming solutions to carbonate in the keg. When I'm cleaning my kegs, there's very little sediment in the bottom of them. I also don't get that picked up into the hose and dumped into my glass.

Do as you wish, but know you're making things more difficult for yourself by going down the route you are.
 
No, I get that. But the chart says it's for force carbonation. I took that to mean that if you want to expedite the carbonation process rather than just waiting for the priming sugars to work then you hook up the CO2 at those levels for that type of beer. But you never force carbonate with beer gas because it's too low in CO2 to be effective.

I'm talking about the kegs in my keezer for drinking rather than the ones I'm racking.

That chart shows the resulting carbonation level at a certain pressure and temperature after equilibrium, and since the beer will always reach equilibrium with the applied pressure, this is used both for carbonating and serving your beer. If you carbonate to 2.5 vol, but then serve the beer at a pressure that equates to only 2.0 vol on that chart, the carbonation level will reduce slightly with every pour until it reaches 2.0 vol. If you carb to 2.0 vol, but then serve it at a pressure that equates to 3.0 vol, the carbonation level will continue to increase until it reaches 3.0 vol. This is true regardless of whether you carbonate with priming sugar or force carbonate. What you need to do is figure out your desired carb level and temp, and then use that chart to find the correct carb/serving pressure to achieve that. You then need to make your beer lines long enough to balance this pressure so that you're not pouring a firehose of foam.

Beer gas is a little more complicated. To get that creamy mouthfeel and cascading head from a stout faucet, the beer has to be forced through a restictor plate with small holes in it that causes the CO2 to break apart into super fine bubbles. A large amount of pressure is required to do this, but if 100% CO2 was used the high pressure would result in severely overcarbonated beer. Nitrogen is mixed with the CO2 since it's inert and doesn't dissolve in the beer. This way the pressure can be cranked way up, but the amount of carbonation will remain in check. I'm not sure where you got the idea that beer gas can't be used to force carbonate beer, but it's completely false. You simply have to do it at the much higher pressure that the beer will be served at, usually 30-40 psi for most pre-blended beer gas mixes.

To answer one of your original questions, you can use beer gas to serve any beer. It's most commonly used for stouts and english ales with lower carb levels, but you can use it for anything you want. I've seen all sorts of beers served on nitro at microbreweries, even IPA's. If you think the lower carb level and creamy mouthfeel would go well with a particular beer, stick it on your nitro tap and see if you're right. Worst case scenario is that you don't like it, and switch the keg back to pure CO2 (after venting the super high pressure of course).

If you want a good long read about balancing draught systems with more info than you probably want, have a look here-
https://files.pbworks.com/download/Kb1R2vtz2e/draftquality/47312934/DQM%20Full%20Final%20V2.pdf

I will say that in my experience the actual resistance of beer lines is significantly less than the figures presented in the above link (and elsewhere on the web). I think the 1 foot of line per psi of serving pressure that Goldiggie mentioned above is a pretty good starting point. The only side effect of lines that are too long is slightly slower pours, and since it's much easier to trim a foot off of a line than it is to grow the line a foot longer, it's a good idea to start out longer than you think you'll need. Another benefit to extra long lines is that you'll still get a good pour even if you decide to serve a beer at a higher carb level than you normally use. The restrictor plate in your stout faucet will provide most of the needed resistance for your nitro mix, so a longer line shouldn't be needed there.
 
Wow, that's a ton of good info. Thanks to all of you. Though I'm loathe to pull apart my coffin box again, I believe I'll have to to add the new 10' fluid lines.

To be fair, I wasn't told I COULDN'T force carbonate with beer gas. I was just told that the much lower amount of CO2 would make it an exceptionally slow process. I was told by the same source that slow force carbonation should generally be done at around 2-4 PSI since it's generally being done, in my case, at about 70 degrees in my fermentation cabinet. Is that bad advice?

And since I have two 20# CO2 tanks and only one beer gas tank, and since the beer gas tank is in my keezer, I guess I'll stick to force carbonating with the CO2.

I do like the idea of skipping the priming sugars and reducing sediment. I was actually unaware that was an option. Very good info. I'm all for ease of cleaning. I'm not INTENTIONALLY going down a path of difficulty. Just didn't realize forgoing the sugar was an option.

Clearly I was misreading that chart. Def gonna read that draught document. Thank god for work printers! ;)


Edit: I guess if I'm skipping the priming sugar I can force carbonate in the keezer at the appropriate pressure. I was only carbonating in the fermenting cabinet because it was warm enough to allow the yeast to work with the sugar.
 
To be fair, I wasn't told I COULDN'T force carbonate with beer gas. I was just told that the much lower amount of CO2 would make it an exceptionally slow process. I was told by the same source that slow force carbonation should generally be done at around 2-4 PSI since it's generally being done, in my case, at about 70 degrees in my fermentation cabinet. Is that bad advice?

Carbonating with beergas is slower even at the correct pressure, but it's only slightly slower than carbing with CO2 using the set and forget method, which generally takes about 2 weeks. I suppose it is "exceptionally slower" than using a burst carb method which usually involves increased pressure or shaking the keg, and only takes a couple of days. But you can also use pure CO2 to carb a beer that you want to serve on beergas, which is actually what I'd suggest doing. Since the N2 is only useful for serving and doesn't really dissolve in the beer, it doesn't make a difference how the beer is carbonated beforehand. If you think about it, force carbonating with CO2 isn't much different than naturally carbonating with priming sugar before serving it on beergas.

Slow force carbonation (aka the set and forget method) can be done at any temperature, but the higher the temp the higher the required pressure. This is readily apparent by looking at the chart linked earlier. At 70F you'd need ~35 psi to reach a moderate carbonation level. Maybe they were suggesting you seal the lid with 2-4 psi before naturally carbing with sugar at 70F? Or maybe they're just clueless.

FWIW I haven't found the amount of sediment at the bottom of the keg to be much different between force carbing and naturally carbing. I usually prefer force carbonation because it's easier and more reliable/accurate, but I still naturally carb some kegs when my keezer is full so that they're carbed and ready as soon as there's space.

I'm not sure if you're aware, but because of the difference in relative headspace, you actually need to use less sugar to prime a keg than you would to bulk prime the same amount of beer for bottling. If you used the same amount that you would have for bottling, you may have slightly overcarbed one or both of your kegs, as Golddiggie touched on in his post, which could also be contributing to your pour/foam issues.
 
Carbonating with beergas is slower even at the correct pressure, but it's only slightly slower than carbing with CO2 using the set and forget method, which generally takes about 2 weeks. I suppose it is "exceptionally slower" than using a burst carb method which usually involves increased pressure or shaking the keg, and only takes a couple of days. But you can also use pure CO2 to carb a beer that you want to serve on beergas, which is actually what I'd suggest doing. Since the N2 is only useful for serving and doesn't really dissolve in the beer, it doesn't make a difference how the beer is carbonated beforehand. If you think about it, force carbonating with CO2 isn't much different than naturally carbonating with priming sugar before serving it on beergas.

Slow force carbonation (aka the set and forget method) can be done at any temperature, but the higher the temp the higher the required pressure. This is readily apparent by looking at the chart linked earlier. At 70F you'd need ~35 psi to reach a moderate carbonation level. Maybe they were suggesting you seal the lid with 2-4 psi before naturally carbing with sugar at 70F? Or maybe they're just clueless.

It was one of the gents at Midwest Supply that gave me my info about beer gassing. I have, to this time, only brewed from their kits, which have the prepackaged amount of corn sugar. I don't recall him mentioning using or not using the sugar. I assume they know what they are talking about and just figured I was using it. And I think he did say 2 weeks with beer gas vs 2 or 3 days force carbing.

Though now that I REALLY think about it, he did mention that I should find that chart that was posted earlier and use the appropriate pressure. I think the lower PSI I found was posted on a brewing blog or someplace that I found when I was looking for, and failing to find, the chart.

FWIW I haven't found the amount of sediment at the bottom of the keg to be much different between force carbing and naturally carbing. I usually prefer force carbonation because it's easier and more reliable/accurate, but I still naturally carb some kegs when my keezer is full so that they're carbed and ready as soon as there's space.

I'm not sure if you're aware, but because of the difference in relative headspace, you actually need to use less sugar to prime a keg than you would to bulk prime the same amount of beer for bottling. If you used the same amount that you would have for bottling, you may have slightly overcarbed one or both of your kegs, as Golddiggie touched on in his post, which could also be contributing to your pour/foam issues.

I confess I haven't studied the chart. So far I just compared the temp of my keezer to the beers I have in it to verify the PSI info I was given. It was approx correct. Looking at it now I see that as the temp increases the soluability drops therefore requiring more pressure for the same saturation.

So Juan, how long do you leave a keg on the CO2 in your keezer or whatever at the correct temp to get good results? Do you use any priming sugar or just the beer and CO2 tank?
 
So Juan, how long do you leave a keg on the CO2 in your keezer or whatever at the correct temp to get good results? Do you use any priming sugar or just the beer and CO2 tank?

The set and forget method of force carbonation usually takes about 2 weeks. In the very rare cases I'm in a hurry to get a beer carbed, I'll burst carb it by setting the pressure to ~30psi (at serving temp) for 36 hrs and then reducing it to normal serving pressure (12psi in my case). It's usually nicely carbed within ~4 days this way.

There are a lot of threads here with discussions on the set and forget method vs various burst carb methods. Essentially the set and forget method gives the beer extra conditioning time that is often needed or at least beneficial, and it's also foolproof, with no way to overcarbonate your beer, compared to the burst carb methods that result in countless "why is my keg pouring foam" threads. The downside is that it takes longer.

As I mentioned, I sometimes carb naturally with priming sugar instead of force carbing. I do this at ~78F and for at least 3 weeks. I only do this because I only have one CO2 regulator, and sometimes like to have a keg that's carbed and ready to go as soon as there's room for it in my keezer. If I had another regulator for my spare CO2 tank (like it sounds like you do), I'd probably force carb all of my beer.

If you're force carbing, you don't want to add any priming sugar.
 
I do have a spare regulator so yeah, that's probably what I will do. There is room in the keezer for 4 or 5 kegs. Since I brew a batch or two a month space SHOULDN'T be an issue.

I had been doing the priming sugar in the keg for about 4 weeks at 70F. Lot to think on from this thread.
 

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