diacetyl rest: before or after moving to secondary?

[triskelion]

If I understand correctly, I have to raise my lager to around 18*C (64*F) for a few days before I start lagering. But does it matter if I rack before or after the diacetyl rest? Also I have read somewhere that this should take place a few points above FG, is this correct? My hydrometer samples have tasted of nothing but diacetyl so far.

 

[osagedr]

Rack after the d-rest.

As many as 10-12 points over expected FG is fine, all the way down to just a few points, as suggested by Zainasheff & White in Yeast.

A lot of diacetyl, did you underpitch significantly?

 

[brent77]

I'm not sure about the details, but I have read/listened to interviews about a Diacetyl Force Test sampling. May help you find out if you need the rest or not fairly quickly.

 

[triskelion]

A lot of diacetyl, did you underpitch significantly?

I used 1 pack of dry yeast (mangrove jacks bohemian lager) re hydrated, in a batch of 11L. I thought It would be ok, it says to use 2 packs for 5 Gallons.
also it's a very light lager with some rice in it, so there's probably not going to be a whole lot of other flavours to hide the diacetyl.

 

[biertourist]

You definitely want it to be on the yeast while you perform the diacetyl rest.

Don't just follow the typical 1-2 day advice, keep it on the yeast at elevated temps until the diacetyl drops below the taste threshold.

I haven't used any of the Mangrove Jacks yeasts yet but if it's the Budwar strain (or "Czechvar" considering the # of Americans on this forum) it's an infamously high diacetyl producer (well technically all strains PRODUCE roughly the same quantity of diacetyl; the ones we call "high diacetyl producers" are actually "slow diacetyl consumers".

Triskelion,
Did you pitch the yeast into cold or warm wort? (Pitching warm is not a practice in ANY lager tradition and increases diacetyl creation.)


Adam

 

[triskelion]

Did you pitch the yeast into cold or warm wort? (Pitching warm is not a practice in ANY lager tradition and increases diacetyl creation.)

I did pitch it warm before slowly cooling to lager fermentation temp. There seems to be much debate over pitching warm or cold, from what I've seen.

 

[BigFloyd]

Pitch plenty of yeast 2-3*F colder than your starting ferment temp.

D-rest while it's still on the cake.

 

[biertourist]

There seems to be much debate over pitching warm or cold, from what I've seen.

Only within the home brewing community; not within the professional brewing or scientific community...


Adam

 

[BigFloyd]

Only within the home brewing community; not within the professional brewing or scientific community...

Meaning?

 

[triskelion]

bit of an update. I've had it at between 16*C 20*C (61*F-68*F) for 3 days, diacetyl taste is gone and it has no oily texture that i've heard associated with diacetyl. just tastes like a more interesting and flat bmc at the minute. Gravity is a few points lower than my expected FG. It has cleared up quite well but It still has a thin layer of krausen which won't sink when I shake it.

should I transfer to secondary now, chill the primary again and wait for the krausen to drop or something else?

 

[betarhoalphadelta]

I prefer starting the lagering process in the primary after d-rest before transferring. It helps as much sediment to drop as possible before that first transfer.

I'll try to hold in primary at 35F for about two weeks, then transfer.

 

[J-Luke]

As far as the krausen is concerned, this is from John Palmer's How to Brew, "The [krausen] is composed of extraneous wort protein, hop resins, and dead yeast. These compounds are very bitter and if stirred back into the wort, would result in harsh aftertastes. Fortunately these compounds are relatively insoluble and are typically removed by adhering to the sides of the fermentor as the krausen subsides. Harsh aftertastes are rarely, if ever, a problem."

That being said, I wouldn't try to get the krausen to drop. Also, I'd say if you're not tasting the artificial butter flavor that too much diacetyl can impart, then I would just begin the lagering process. Btw, what yeast strain are you using?

 

[triskelion]

I prefer starting the lagering process in the primary after d-rest before transferring. It helps as much sediment to drop as possible before that first transfer.

I'll try to hold in primary at 35F for about two weeks, then transfer.

Was thinking something along those lines, not sure if i can get it that cold though. I would be a little worried about autolysis if I leave it on the trub for that long though, because I think that happened to me before when I left a batch in the primary for a month.

 

[triskelion]

That being said, I wouldn't try to get the krausen to drop. Also, I'd say if you're not tasting the artificial butter flavor that too much diacetyl can impart, then I would just begin the lagering process. Btw, what yeast strain are you using?

I used mangrove jacks bohemian lager, I'm quite impressed with it so far, It was a very slow start but I can't taste any esters at this stage. I was only using a swamp cooler and the temperature was going up and down a few degrees every day while I was at work, so I was not expecting it to be this clean.
Not sure if I should use the spiggot or autosyphon. I think the autosyphon would pick up more trub but the spiggot would let out the krausen. any thoughts?

 

[BigFloyd]

bit of an update. I've had it at between 16*C 20*C (61*F-68*F) for 3 days, diacetyl taste is gone and it has no oily texture that i've heard associated with diacetyl. just tastes like a more interesting and flat bmc at the minute. Gravity is a few points lower than my expected FG. It has cleared up quite well but It still has a thin layer of krausen which won't sink when I shake it.

should I transfer to secondary now, chill the primary again and wait for the krausen to drop or something else?

At this stage, don't shake it at all. By doing so, you stir up all the stuff that you were getting to settle out of your beer by cold crashing.

I'd give it another few days in the cold to settle down again, then carefully move it (without sloshing it around) to where you're going to rack to your bottling bucket (or whatever you're going to lager in).

 

[triskelion]

screw it, I'm cold crashing

 

[J-Luke]

Personally, I would place a rolled up towel underneath one side of the fermentor in order to prop it up, and then autosiphon between the trub and krausen layers. By propping it up, you decrease the surface area of the beer to the trub, thereby allowing you to transfer more beer with a smaller chance of picking up trub.

 

[highgravitybacon]

Meaning?

Meaning that few pro brewers would pitch a lager yeast warm. Pitch cold, ferment cold. Chill to 44, pitch, slowly raise temps to 48-50 and keep it there for a while. No diacetyl.

 

[biertourist]

Meaning?

There were people for decades who stated that "the verdict was still out" on whether smoking was bad for you and whether it caused cancer even though science had long since established that it was fact.

Global warming is much the same; spin doctors tell you that there's not broad concensus as they pay for research to try to convince you that it doesn't exist.

Putting your head in the sand or your fingers in your ears and shouting "nana can't hear you!" simply doesn't make facts go away. Neither does repeating incorrect information over and over enough; it may create delusion, but it doesn't change facts.

This is one of those "controversial" issues that isn't actually.

 

[BigFloyd]

Meaning that few pro brewers would pitch a lager yeast warm. Pitch cold, ferment cold. Chill to 44, pitch, slowly raise temps to 48-50 and keep it there for a while. No diacetyl.

That's what I was hoping you meant. Just checking to be sure.

This time of year (with the hose water being so warm), it takes me 30# of ice to get my lager wort down to 44*F, but that's where it goes (followed by a healthy pitch of yeast).

 

[dgez]

I don't do D-rests. I ferment at 48-50 for at least a month...if the yeast isn't finished cleaning up by then, then oh well.

 

[triskelion]

I'll try pitching cooler with my next lager. Although it does seem to ferment faster by pitching warm, then cool and do a diacetyl rest. whether or not that negatively affects the taste, I cannot say but I'm not getting any diacetyl or esters, having moved it to secondary

 

[RishoBrew]

Chill to 44, pitch, slowly raise temps to 48-50 and keep it there for a while. No diacetyl.

Allow me to chime in with a question. I don't have a very efficient cooling system, just a coil and a well water that's not very cold, so I'm generally real happy if I can get to 60-61F. I brew lagers regularly, so what do I do? Can I stick the carboy in a fridge overnight to cool it to 44 then pitch the yeast? Obviously, concerned about contamination. Thanks!

 

[Dland]

Allow me to chime in with a question. I don't have a very efficient cooling system, just a coil and a well water that's not very cold, so I'm generally real happy if I can get to 60-61F. I brew lagers regularly, so what do I do? Can I stick the carboy in a fridge overnight to cool it to 44 then pitch the yeast? Obviously, concerned about contamination. Thanks!

This is a 6 year old thread, don't be afraid to start your own next time.

In my opinion 48F is too cold to reliably get lager yeast going in reasonable time. Have tried very cold, and warm fermented, ect.. but have had best results fermenting in the middle range of manufacture's recommended temperature for most yeasts I've tried, and all the ones I use regularly. The lager yeasts I use I run at 54-56F.

34/70 is what I'd use at your temp(60-61) for lager, also would be OK for US-05 or a even better nice kolsh yeast.

 

[couchsending]

Use liquid yeast

Pitch a metric ton of it
2m/ml/*plato

Pitch colder than you would ferment

Oxygenate it really well

Should be done in 7 days at 48-50 and no elevated d-rest is needed. Lager yeast can continue to work down to incredibly low temps.

Slowly step down to 39/40 and leave for a week then continue to 30 and leave it for a month.

 

[cactusgarrett]

Can I stick the carboy in a fridge overnight to cool it to 44 then pitch the yeast?

Target temp issue aside, yes you can. There have been plenty of instances of people pitching the next morning without any adverse affects. The key is to have solid sanitary practices and ensure a healthy pitch to help a quick start to fermentation.