Degassing in primary-- DEBUNKED.

[Yooper]

That could be interesting, but if you're trying to push for ABV I'd rather recommend the step-feeding approach. I've made some REALLY strong meads pretty nicely using step-feeding, and it works. It takes time, but it works.


I disagree, sorry. If CO2 was that poisonous to yeast, pressure fermentation would have presented A TON of issues. Yet it doesn't, and results in cleaner and faster fermentations. The studies I've read (and the real-world tests done by pretty famous mead makers like Ryan Carlson), shows that degassing makes no difference to the home brewer.

Ah, but.....pressure fermentation DOES have those issues, but the key is a low pressure. Anyway, you don’t have to degas. I would recommend always breaking up the cap, to keep it from drying out (and getting moldy).

 

[Neeb]

That's what it actually is!

So degrousing, (if that is even really a word) is degassing without oxygenation? Degassing involves mandatory oxygenation?

 

[Miraculix]

So degrousing, (if that is even really a word) is degassing without oxygenation? Degassing involves mandatory oxygenation?

As long as we are not arousing the yeast to much, it's all fine

If you open your fermenter, oxygen gets in. If not, it's not getting in.

 

[Toxxyc]

LOL arousing the yeast. I think that's a different discussion and might lead to a long and hard fermentation...

I'll finish off with one thought here (not saying I'm rage quitting at all, I enjoy the discussions), and that's that I believe A LOT of "rules" and stuff in the world of mead and winemaking is rested in tradition. Traditionally people used to:
1. Pitch perfect amounts of yeast, believing that overpitching is a very common problem.
2. Boil the crap out of their must prior to pitching the yeast, believing it's crucial to sterilize the must.
3. Add k-meta (Campden tablets) to the must prior to pitching the yeast.
4. Degas their meads and wines religiously.
5. Rack off the less VERY quickly, sometimes even in the middle of an active fermentation, because "autolysis is a problem".
6. Feed their yeast with DAP and all kinds of chemicals, usually all at once (at pitch), because they thought that's what yeast wants.

Today we know that lot of these rules and stuff are not only based in fiction (or doesn't benefit the homebrewer), but can even be harmful. We know, for example, that rehydrating yeast in DAP is bad. During rehydration the yeast cells cannot control what passes the cell membrane and the DAP then entering the cell is actually slightly toxic to the yeast. Therefore, rehydrate in water, if you rehydrate at all.

We also know that it's practically impossible to overpitch yeast with modern yeasts. Same goes for racking. The ONLY yeast strain I am careful with when it comes to letting the mead sit on the lees, is 71B, and even then it's a matter of months, not weeks like some believe.

I'm not saying I'm right, at all, trust me, because I'm usually not. I'm no expert, I'm no microbiologist and I'm no professional brewer/winemaker, nor to I proclaim to be.

What I am though is someone who's made it his life mission to make booze cheaply without sacrificing too much quality. I don't stick to guidelines and I do what I want. That includes making up my own recipes, and doing stuff I think will work only to learn if it does for myself. That includes the world of making meads. Yes, I haven't made a lot of mead in my life, maybe 200l or 300l or so, but the vast majority of that was made according to my own recipe, using my own logic and they turned out FANTASTIC. I didn't degas, I didn't use a drop of DAP, hell, I didn't even rehydrate the yeast (first batch, the rest was yeast collected from previous meads).

What I did do, and what I think is of utmost importance in making mead, was to stick to a very strict temperature control schedule. I made a must that wasn't too strong, I didn't aim too high and I didn't stress the yeast trying to hit super ABV numbers. I stuck to the TOSNA 2.0 schedule of feeding my yeast with organic yeast nutrients and I gave it time. I took 3 pages full of notes of the whole process the first time around, and compare notes of following recipes to it closely.

The result is meads I'm VERY proud of, even with minimal aging. One thing I haven't managed to get down yet is clear meads in a short time, but to me that's a small concern. My meads have always been VERY drinkable after 4~6 weeks and I'm really proud of that, considering I'm making mostly off-dry, semi-sweet traditionals, at 11% ABV with 71B (not the best combo).

So yeah, that's more or less my little story with this, and my reasoning for doing things a certain way. I learned A LOT from the guys over at GotMead and specifically spent some time on Ryan Carlson's podcasts. Lot of it is just banter, but sometimes VERY important info gets thrown out, I test it, and it works!

 

[Miraculix]

LOL arousing the yeast. I think that's a different discussion and might lead to a long and hard fermentation...

I'll finish off with one thought here (not saying I'm rage quitting at all, I enjoy the discussions), and that's that I believe A LOT of "rules" and stuff in the world of mead and winemaking is rested in tradition. Traditionally people used to:
1. Pitch perfect amounts of yeast, believing that overpitching is a very common problem.
2. Boil the crap out of their must prior to pitching the yeast, believing it's crucial to sterilize the must.
3. Add k-meta (Campden tablets) to the must prior to pitching the yeast.
4. Degas their meads and wines religiously.
5. Rack off the less VERY quickly, sometimes even in the middle of an active fermentation, because "autolysis is a problem".
6. Feed their yeast with DAP and all kinds of chemicals, usually all at once (at pitch), because they thought that's what yeast wants.

Today we know that lot of these rules and stuff are not only based in fiction (or doesn't benefit the homebrewer), but can even be harmful. We know, for example, that rehydrating yeast in DAP is bad. During rehydration the yeast cells cannot control what passes the cell membrane and the DAP then entering the cell is actually slightly toxic to the yeast. Therefore, rehydrate in water, if you rehydrate at all.

We also know that it's practically impossible to overpitch yeast with modern yeasts. Same goes for racking. The ONLY yeast strain I am careful with when it comes to letting the mead sit on the lees, is 71B, and even then it's a matter of months, not weeks like some believe.

I'm not saying I'm right, at all, trust me, because I'm usually not. I'm no expert, I'm no microbiologist and I'm no professional brewer/winemaker, nor to I proclaim to be.

What I am though is someone who's made it his life mission to make booze cheaply without sacrificing too much quality. I don't stick to guidelines and I do what I want. That includes making up my own recipes, and doing stuff I think will work only to learn if it does for myself. That includes the world of making meads. Yes, I haven't made a lot of mead in my life, maybe 200l or 300l or so, but the vast majority of that was made according to my own recipe, using my own logic and they turned out FANTASTIC. I didn't degas, I didn't use a drop of DAP, hell, I didn't even rehydrate the yeast (first batch, the rest was yeast collected from previous meads).

What I did do, and what I think is of utmost importance in making mead, was to stick to a very strict temperature control schedule. I made a must that wasn't too strong, I didn't aim too high and I didn't stress the yeast trying to hit super ABV numbers. I stuck to the TOSNA 2.0 schedule of feeding my yeast with organic yeast nutrients and I gave it time. I took 3 pages full of notes of the whole process the first time around, and compare notes of following recipes to it closely.

The result is meads I'm VERY proud of, even with minimal aging. One thing I haven't managed to get down yet is clear meads in a short time, but to me that's a small concern. My meads have always been VERY drinkable after 4~6 weeks and I'm really proud of that, considering I'm making mostly off-dry, semi-sweet traditionals, at 11% ABV with 71B (not the best combo).

So yeah, that's more or less my little story with this, and my reasoning for doing things a certain way. I learned A LOT from the guys over at GotMead and specifically spent some time on Ryan Carlson's podcasts. Lot of it is just banter, but sometimes VERY important info gets thrown out, I test it, and it works!

You can try adding NaCl to your water. I read that yeast flocks out much better if the Na level is at least at 50ppm in the water.

 

[Toxxyc]

You can try adding NaCl to your water. I read that yeast flocks out much better if the Na level is at least at 50ppm in the water.

I've done that, yes. It didn't work that well. What I have done is tried to fine using gelatin, but it's not very effective in meads. I'm now looking for more of a commercial wine clarifier, but it's a bit hard to get in South Africa where I am. We don't get all the cool stuff the guys elsewhere in the world take for granted.

 

[Miraculix]

I've done that, yes. It didn't work that well. What I have done is tried to fine using gelatin, but it's not very effective in meads. I'm now looking for more of a commercial wine clarifier, but it's a bit hard to get in South Africa where I am. We don't get all the cool stuff the guys elsewhere in the world take for granted.

Don't, it always takes away some flavor. Just wait it out or get a better flocking yeast.

 

[Toxxyc]

Yeah I'm aware of the flavour/colour issue, but it's very tiny for me. I haven't used Gelatin in a while though as it just doesn't work. I need to find something like a 2-stage hot/cold clarifier that works well. Saw something like that in a handbook the other day, but again, finding it in SA is a PITA.

 

[Neeb]

Arouse the yeast so it can then arouse you, I get it.

 

[Karn]

How many wines have you made and do you use Campden?
Thanks for your unprofessional opinion.

 

[Toxxyc]

I've made only meads, probably around 200 or 300l to date. So not A LOT. I use campden, but as k-meta powder, and only after fermentation, clarification and a quick bulk aging session to stabilize the mead. That's all.

 

[Karn]

I've made only meads, probably around 200 or 300l to date. So not A LOT. I use campden, but as k-meta powder, and only after fermentation, clarification and a quick bulk aging session to stabilize the mead. That's all.

Interesting, I use Campden only before fermenting wines. Does anything we do matter? lol

 

[Toxxyc]

You use it to kill wild things in the wine. I make a big enough starter before pitching, so I'm not too worried about that. I used it to kill everything AFTER making the wine.

 

[Yooper]

Interesting, I use Campden only before fermenting wines. Does anything we do matter? lol

Mead is less susceptible to oxidation (but not immune). I use campden in a small amount in every other racking and at bottling, primarily as an antioxidant.