Decoction

[TrickyDick]

Only ever did it once and it was a PITA, but the beer came out awesome
I now have a new system 3 vessel eHerms 2 elements
What are my options for decoction? I wouldn’t think you’d want to direct heat mash in boil kettle with the electric element ??? While stirring, you kill the element, not to mention cleaning for the boil...

separate heat plate or gas burner? How big of a vessel & hot plate or gas burner would I need for 10 gal batches?
Maybe I shouldnt even ask

TD

 

[day_trippr]

Traditionally, one pulls a third of the mash to the decoction vessel and heat it well above mash temperature.
Which would pretty much bork your eHerms process, as you'd still be recirculating the mash through the decoction preparation.
I don't know about stirring the decoction with an e-element in the way, so I'd go with a five gallon pot/kettle on a separate burner...

Cheers!

 

[TrickyDick]

Yeah kinda what I was thinking would be the only way. Need to figure what kind of heating power I’m going to need. Any thoughts? Don’t want propane if I can avoid that.
TD

 

[Deadalus]

I recently did one with the same system, smaller batch. Like day_trippr says. There were two decoction steps, the first was bigger in volume, I used Brewsmith to calculate but I customized it to try a Hochkurz Mash. The second step I could have used a smaller pot. I was using a 4 gallon pot I had for a 6 gallon batch. A five would be fine. If you had a 50 amp panel you could do both.

I used the burner on my outside grill but that was weak and slow. I was thinking of getting a single burner though with a good amount of btus.

 

[day_trippr]

Maybe a compact countertop induction element with a compatible pot? It'd still be electric
[edit] Single element 1800 watt countertop cookers are surprisingly inexpensive...

Cheers!

 

[bkboiler]

I was somewhat wondering about this as well, but from a slightly different perspective. I'm almost done building out a kettle rims system, and am planning to possibly decoct by shutting the valve to the top kettle and boiling that mash liquor only...is that going to yield significantly different results to not have the grains physically boiled?
Just wondering...thanks in advance!

 

[TrickyDick]

Thanks, maybe I fiddle with brewsmith to see what kind of volumes. 5 gallons make it easy on the budget but finding a indoor burner powerful enough. Maybe induction, I do have a 50A panel but I’m not sure how I’d run my separate burner off that. Thinking 120V outlet 10A might be enough. I have some 15A 120VAC circuits in that room I know, I just don’t remember which outlets they are....

 

[Deadalus]

You're right though it might be problematic in the BK, depending on the element positioning and you might scorch it.

 

[TrickyDick]

That and also scooping out the mash without hitting the element, they are fragile and will break. Electrically they break somehow. I did it in my HLT by accidentally bumping the element while stirring to dissolve minerals..

 

[Deadalus]

Yeah after I reread, I thought it could be problematic. Messy too.

One way with the 50 amp panel would be to get a 240V induction burner and match the plug to your BK. You might have to cut and replace yourself. If this is something you plan on doing regularly. I had done it in the past but not in a long time. I always liked the results. First time on my electric system was just recently with a marzen that is almost ready to keg.

 

[TrickyDick]

Hmm. Yeah I had to make custom cords for my burners because the ones my set up came with were too short where I had my panel mounted so I could make one for an induction burner. Good call on that thank you for the idea. Much easier to get a powerful 240 V induction heat plate. The big issue will be finding a induction Compatible kettle that’s 5 gallons. Most stainless needs a special bottom to work.

 

[Vale71]

I was somewhat wondering about this as well, but from a slightly different perspective. I'm almost done building out a kettle rims system, and am planning to possibly decoct by shutting the valve to the top kettle and boiling that mash liquor only...is that going to yield significantly different results to not have the grains physically boiled?
Just wondering...thanks in advance!

Just boiling the liquid part will yield very little. Traditionally it was done for the last decoction step but that was just in order to achieve mashout temperature in a system were the mash tun could not be heated. In a system where you can mix decoction and infusion steps at will you're better off mashing out by infusion as it's faster and less messy and the liquid decoction will hardly bring any difference to the final product.

 

[uprightfever]

I use a single burner portable butane stove. You can get a cheap one that's maybe 15k BTU/hr for $20. They are also useful for wok cooking, dining table cooking and camping.

 

[micraftbeer]

I did the Earl'sches decoction method that was in Zymurgy a while back. Was very straightforward. I had a traditional mash tun with a RIMS setup. I used an 1800W/120v induction burner for the boiling, and that was surprisingly strong boil for a grain filled mash, but I was only making a 5 gallon batch.

First step was 75% of grain + 50% of mash water, using RIMS mashed at 145F for 75 minutes.

Boiled that for 20 minutes.

Added remaining grain & water, then mashed at 148F for 60 minutes.

10 minute mash out at 168F.

Batch sparged.

It definitely made an effect, it was my first time doing decoction. I realized it was not a too for all beer styles, though as it turned my crisp hoppy Dusseldorf Alt too malty.

 

[bkboiler]

Got it...i'll use my old induction burner when I decoct. Thanks!

 

[TrickyDick]

I found a 18qt SS (Vollrath) pot for around $100 that is induction compatible. That should be large enough for everything but a dopplebock I would think. The induction coooktops I found were 1800W 120V ($299 I think) or 3600W 240V ($160) but that 240V had sketchy durability and only 6 mo warranty, the 120V is rock solid (Vollrath). From here, the cost rises dramatically. I think going larger and more power is going to require propane which I want to avoid at all costs because it would require an outdoor component. Since I moved electric I don't really want to go back. However, I'm sure the least expensive way to go would be a turkey fryer kit at a big box store.
I already have an indoor induction range, but would be very messy hauling a big kettle of hot mash up and down the stairs (my brewery is in the basement.) Going to checkout some sample recipies in beersmith and see what kind of volumes I'm going to need.

Ideally, want to match brewpot base diameter to induction top and get something I could do up to 20 quarts boiling in. Boiling mash isn't going to foam over like in a boil kettle that I am aware of. I'll probably need more than 22 quarts though. I don't believe the 7.5G Blichman is induction capable. On the search for specs.....
TD

 

[TrickyDick]

Got it...i'll use my old induction burner when I decoct. Thanks!

Induction works great. I installed an induction cooktop in my home (and had to run 50A service instead of typical 30A for radiant) but makes a huge difference. I forgot the results when I boiled 12 qts of water but it took half the time it did on the radiant setup.

My issue is that my boil kettle needs a minimum volume of at least 8 gallons to prevent HSA from the whirlpool feature, which I also use during chilling. I did a small batch when I first built it and had bad HSA. probably going to be hard to find the perfect match of kettle and induction burner for up to 20 qts.

TD

 

[TrickyDick]

Well I just pulled the trigger on a completely different induction cooktop off amazon for $53 w/ 1 yr warranty 1800W and a 5.5G SSBrewtech kettle for $109 w/ Free shipping. I can also use the pot in my kitchen if I ever wanted or needed to, and could take the cooktop on camping trips or for portable cooking. Might be a struggle to do dopplebock, but for everything else should be the perfect solution.

@micraftbeer which issue of Zymurgy was that article by the way? I'd like to read that one.

TD

 

[micraftbeer]

May/Jun 2019

 

[TrickyDick]

Have to check that out. Gear has arrived. Have some time off next week to do some brewing. Need to fix my DIY glycol fermentation controller first but should take too much time. Need a bullet proof recipe. I might cheat and try to use some ale yeast with a spunding valve, because too cheap to pay for all that lager yeast.
Any recipe suggestions? I got a bunch of books but most say to do step infusion and skip the decoction unless it’s under modified malt.
Meh. Maybe I just throw in a decoction step on the end of one of my tried and true pale ale or ESB recipes.

 

[micraftbeer]

My Dusseldorf Alt recipe I've made several times uses 100% Munich malt. Doing the decoction was like turning the amp on the malt up to 11. My baseline recipe was already a multi step mash. This decoction was MORE.

I walked away from the experience thinking I would only ever try it again on a beer I wanted to really emphasize the malt flavor. So I would not think of a Pale Ale, but maybe an ESB. I was thinking it would be great for a bock.

 

[TrickyDick]

Yeah, the Double Bock I did a few years ago was the only time I tried it and my effiency was through the roof. Was 100% munich I believe. Amazing, and overshot my target OG 1.100 I think it was. I have a great ESB recipe I've been tweaking for a few years - before I took about 6 years break. I think I'm going to try that one soon. That gear by SS brewtech I must say I'm impressed with the build quality.
TD

 

[rex clingan]

My approach is two separate mashes, a thick D mash and and a thinner I mash, to avoid the mess of having to pull a decoction. I have a spreadsheet with the math laid out somewhere. From memory, it was half the malt in each mash, with the D mash stepped up through saccharification rest then boiled, and combined with I mash. Earl's approach from Zymurgy looks fairly similar.