Decoct or not to decoct my dunkelweizen...

[urg8rb8]

... that is the question.

I tried searching for experiments to see if decoction of grain really makes a difference in taste. And if it does, by how much? Wondering if it is worth the extra steps.

Anyone make a non-decocted weizen and have the taste come out to style?

 

[MrAverageGuy]

Pro friends tell me that with today's highly modified malts, that decoction really isn't necessary...so, never have done a decoction and couldn't give an idea of side-by-side comparison. Made plenty of (what I think is) very good Weizen without decoction...no Dunkel yet...

 

[blizz81]

If it was me, for a weizen...something where you're looking for a lot of flavor to be coming from the yeast...I wouldn't bother.


For styles where you want the majority of your flavor coming from your malt...well, I still teeter myself / don't have enough experience to have a personally preferred method. Ask me after I crack my Marzen in the spring (FWIW on that style specifically, I have had Marzen that was made with single infusion that I really enjoyed, in one recent case even compared to the numerous Bavarian Marzen and / or Festbier being served at a local Oktoberfest. Brewer told me it was all in the grist, but wouldn't give me any more specifics).

 

[doug293cz]

http://braukaiser.com/blog/blog/2009/06/16/decoction-vs-no-decoction-on-a-dunkel

Brew on

 

[JBOGAN]

I would only do it if you have never done a decoction. IME it has little benefit but learning something new is always fun.

 

[Qhrumphf]

Jury is out. Some folks (Denny) say it doesn't make a difference. Others (Gordon Strong) say it does. In my experience, I prefer my Weizens decocted vs. non-decocted (and go to the extent of a 4-step, triple decocted mash). But you may find no benefit, or may find it easier to supplement with (additional) specialty malts.

 

[giraffe]

Im not going to go into the whole whether or not a decoction has a taste difference rabbit hole. It will effect efficiency, color, and mash ph by a small amount. But i do think a step mash is important for german wheat beers in general. How you want to do it is up to you. I have a mash tun that cant be direct heated and no rims system, so decoction makes sense to me. (and I have no issues with a 8 hour brew day, when i have a beer in hand, and i enjoy decoctions)

 

[Gavin C]

I say do it if for no other reason, simply to learn about the process.

I am minimally experienced having tackled 3 decoctions. I like the results.

Complete anecdotal weakest rationale ever but it's fun. Go for it.

Denny's presentation on decoctions is very interesting but I think it's one of those very subtle components of brewing that may have a very high bar when it comes to differential flavor detection sensitivity.

I don't believe the sample sizes used in the various comparisons conclusively show there is no merit to their use.

There's a little bit about step mashing including decoctions in my sig below.

I'm brewing tomorrow and incorporating a decoction mash.

I think there is a definite impact on color with a decoction particular if any malts are added for color adjustment. It accentuates their effects. I also believe with very weak data to support this view that pH is lowered by ~0.1 via a decoction.

 

[Qhrumphf]

I've done a few of them. My recent Kölsch incorporated a single decoction to bring the mash from sacch rest to mash out. If I remember correctly (he talks about it in Brewing Better Beer) this is the method Gordon Strong often uses, as it's not significantly more work than a non-decoction mash. The multi-decoction with each decoction also getting a conversion rest days are the long ones.

The important thing with a Weizen is incorporating an acid rest (110-113F is where I go). That provides extra ferulic acid that's needed to produce a good level of 4 vinylguiaicol (clove phenolic). Decoction I would say is probably secondary, but I think it adds something to the malt character. I've admittedly never tried the same beer side by side decocted vs. non decocted (although I've tried both on the same beer separately, and as said I prefer the decoction).

 

[Cyclman]

I think the evidence is rather strong that it isn't a huge difference.

If you think complicated mashing schedules are fun (many homebrewers tend to think along these lines, or why else would we homebrew), go for it!

If you want to be time efficient, don't do it.

I decoct all my lagers, and they have been excellent beers.

But I am sure I could infuse them and also make excellent beer.

 

[mattsearle]

I'm in a similar boat for a pilsner that I'm brewing at the weekend. I have been advised just to use a 2 step infusion mash, adding hot water to raise the temp rather than a decoction, so I'll still get the rests I need? Perhaps this would work for you also?

If I've been misinformed and I should in fact be doing a decoction for a pilsner, then perhaps someone on her will set me straight?

 

[lowtones84]

If you have the time and ability to do it, do it. I've only done decoctions twice, but to me the taste was totally different (in a good way) than beers using a single infusion or even multiple rests. I know this isn't very scientific, but it's good enough for me.

It's not that you can't make a good beer without it, of course. Not all styles call for it, either. My vote is go for it, but whatever you end up doing I'm sure it will be great

 

[ArkotRamathorn]

I would go for it.

I've read the couple of different experiments about it and it probably isnt something that makes a *huge* difference.

Though I personally think that little bit that it *maybe* makes a difference could be the difference of an award winning beer and not (key words *maybe* and *could*).

I like doing decoctions, even with styles that may not need it. I like that I get a little more color and slightly better efficiency, and with my high pH city water I can use less acid/acid malt and dark color malts. I havent done any side by side since I don't have that capability, though anecdotally I had a single decoction roggenbier score a 41 (the only master judge that tasted it gave it a 43) and they commented on the deep malty character the beer had (probably the 4lbs of munich 10 malt, but none the less).

Edit: First attempt at a roggenbier and no access to commercial examples, BYO suggests that decoctions are necessary, created my own original recipe, first time entering a beer (the roggenbier) into a BJCP competition. So my entire experience and belief in decoctions could be taken with a grain of salt since I cannot make a comparison to another roggenbier with the same recipe and no decoctions. I have a strong feeling the decoction is what put my beer in the 40 range rather than ending in the upper 30s.

 

[BitterSweetBrews]

I have done only one or two decoction brews and they were good beers. But, I haven't brewed the same recipe with and without a decoction, so I can't compare end results by experience. I do agree that the step mash is the important part.

I do wonder if the decoction boil may create some caramelization of the sugars you might otherwise not get from the mash, which would affect color and taste. I know there are different thoughts on this, but it makes sense.

Last week, I brewed a dunkle and used my RIMS to do a two step mash. After a week of fermenting at lager temps (53) it is about half done. Gravity samples taste good and the color is on.

For myself, electric brewing, doing the boil of the removed mash portion would be a hassle. Taking it from the brewery upstairs to the kitchen to boil on the stove would be a pain. It would also smell up the rest of my house and the wife would not be happy (I have an exhaust fan in the brewery so the house doesn't smell when I am brewing). That's why I have a RIMS. It is a lot easier to do a decoction with gas outside. If I was brewing with gas I would do a proper decoction if for nothing else just to follow the style tradition.

 

[doug293cz]

I have done only one or two decoction brews and they were good beers. But, I haven't brewed the same recipe with and without a decoction, so I can't compare end results by experience. I do agree that the step mash is the important part.

I do wonder if the decoction boil may create some caramelization of the sugars you might otherwise not get from the mash, which would affect color and taste. I know there are different thoughts on this, but it makes sense.

...

You will not get caramelization at boiling (decoction) temperatures. You will get some color and flavor from melanoidins formed by Maillard reactions during the decoction(s). But then kilned and roasted malts also contain melanoidins from Maillard reactions. Thus there are two different paths to getting melanoidins into your beer. Can you get equivalent flavor with either method? I doubt that argument will ever be settled.

Brew on

 

[Gavin C]

I'm in a similar boat for a pilsner that I'm brewing at the weekend. I have been advised just to use a 2 step infusion mash, adding hot water to raise the temp rather than a decoction, so I'll still get the rests I need? Perhaps this would work for you also?

If I've been misinformed and I should in fact be doing a decoction for a pilsner, then perhaps someone on her will set me straight?

There is no one correct way.

For a Pilsner you can make a case for doing a single infusion or a stepped mash. All depends on personal preferences and what you like/don't like in the resulting beer. Step mashing can be done in a variety of ways depending on your equipment.

• Directly Heating the MT
• Infusions of near boiling water
• Decoctions
• A hybrid approach

There is a bit about the step mashing process in my signature below if your interested. I'm all for them.

 

[mattsearle]

There is no one correct way.

For a Pilsner you can make a case for doing a single infusion or a stepped mash. All depends on personal preferences and what you like/don't like in the resulting beer. Step mashing can be done in a variety of ways depending on your equipment.

• Directly Heating the MT
• Infusions of near boiling water
• Decoctions
• A hybrid approach

There is a bit about the step mashing process in my signature below if your interested. I'm all for them.

Thanks for that Gavin. I realised when I opened your post that i had actually skimmed over it when it first appeared on HBT, but at the time it wasn't something that I was thinking a lot about. I've just had a good read of it and there's some really useful stuff in there. Nice one

 

[urg8rb8]

Awesome replies everyone!

I have never done anything more than a single infusion mash. Maybe I should try a two-step infusion and see how that goes. I'm just worried about the decoction getting away from me.

 

[urg8rb8]

There is no one correct way.

For a Pilsner you can make a case for doing a single infusion or a stepped mash. All depends on personal preferences and what you like/don't like in the resulting beer. Step mashing can be done in a variety of ways depending on your equipment.

• Directly Heating the MT
• Infusions of near boiling water
• Decoctions
• A hybrid approach

There is a bit about the step mashing process in my signature below if your interested. I'm all for them.

Your "step mashing" article is awesome! Thanks for making it!

 

[ArkotRamathorn]

I have never done anything more than a single infusion mash. Maybe I should try a two-step infusion and see how that goes. I'm just worried about the decoction getting away from me.

Just go really slow for your first decoction. If you have a non-stick pan and an electric stove top it's really easy to control it, I usually just use a big non stick pot usually used to boil pasta and do my decoctions in that on my electric stove. Trying to do it on your outside propane burner with aluminum/stainless steel makes it much more difficult (though generally this is the way most do their decoctions, the skill level for avoiding a burnt decoction rises).

Avoiding the burnt decoction isn't super difficult, you just have to be attentive and have a good idea of your propane burners output. Do a stove top decoction in a non stick pan and see how you like it, it seems like decoctions in non stick need more time to achieve the same level of color so there's much less chance of the decoction getting away from you.

 

[urg8rb8]

I already had the recipe in BeerSmith so I just changed the mash profile to single decoction mash (as you can see in the attachment). So it shows a protein rest at 122F for 35 mins. I get that. Second step says to decoct. What confuses me is that it shows a step temp of 154F for 45 mins. I'm reading that as "boil the decoction for X amount of time then put it back into the mash tun. New mash temp will be 154F and let it mash for 45 mins." If that is right, how long do you usually boil the decoction for?

Also, I never did a "mash out" before where I had to heat up the mash. I've always done a single infusion for an hour or so then did a batch sparge. Can I just batch sparge instead of "mash out"?

 

[didinho]

Go for the decoction!
Even one step enhances malry flavors, caramelizations and melanoidins. In a dunkelweizen it's perfect.

 

[lowtones84]

You should be able to batch sparge if your sparge water is hot enough for a "mash out." As far as boiling the decoction, I believe 20-45 minutes is typical with darker beers tending toward the higher side.

 

[Gavin C]

Your "step mashing" article is awesome! Thanks for making it!

Thanks GatorBait

It seems step mashing is not a very popular process.

I guess time, equipment, and doubts regarding its efficacy take their toll.

I would encourage trying them out to see how they do or don't fit into your brewing.

As an aside. You should explore the pro's and cons of protein rests before deciding to incorporate a 30+ minute rest. There is a lot of info out there suggesting this is not best practice with modern fully converted malts.

Like I said, just something to explore.

 

[Qhrumphf]

If incorporating a protein rest into a decoction schedule, I would pull your decoction the moment your mash is at protein rest temp, heat it to 152 or so, hold the decoction there for 20 mins then boil for 15-20 mins. That's a very long protein rest as it is, otherwise it'll be way too long. If I'm doing a multi step multi decoction mash that's what I do, but I skip the boil length at that temp and just add back as soon as it boils to keep the protein rest length down (and boil other decoctions longer).

If you only want one decoction I would sooner do a second infusion to the sacch rest, and then do your decoction to get to mash out instead of direct fire. That's what I do for single decoctions.

 

[lowtones84]

If you only want one decoction I would sooner do a second infusion to the sacch rest, and then do your decoction to get to mash out instead of direct fire. That's what I do for single decoctions.

This is also a good option, and how I did it on my first decoction. Even with the single decoction I was pleased with the results.