Danger of Hops to Dogs

[Laughing_Gnome_Invisible]

Know what LG? Your use of the English language is utterly amazing! I always sit in awe of the way you don't say the things that should be left unsaid without unsaying the other things that lack understandability, but only when the moon is unfull.....

Meet me on the "insult thread" I will unsay everything you didn't mention about the bits that I never said.

 

[Laughing_Gnome_Invisible]

Actually, my dog ate a single hop pellet and now he's a zombie. :cross:

the best way to kill a hop crazed zombie dog is with a wet shovel.

 

[dontman]

Not quite how scientific research works, but good try. I can go out and pick the first 10 people I meet on campus and chances are none of them will be black. Does this mean that there are no blacks on campus? OF COURSE NOT. I do not mean to be racist or bigoted in any way, its just my class of 135 students has 0 blacks in it. With even this large sampling, does that mean there are no black veterinarians, or no black students? Nope, not at all.

Yet you use as the basis for your report a "study" that had a sample size with a grand total of 5 dogs! The one thing that everyone always hangs their hat on to prove the connection between hops and MH and it is not, according to what you just posted, based on scientific study in any way. It is a ill-founded, ill-conceived, tentative hunch that a group of non-research non-scientists have made and which we for better or worse have latched onto like a barnacle. Absolutely no conclusions can, or are meant to for that matter, be drawn from such an abstract. This is the type of hunch which spurs a study if someone deems it credible and important enough. Obviously they didn't. We shouldn't either. Keep in mind that the Merck book completely ignores this hunch when they list the possible causes for MH.

Maybe those 5 dogs got sick because they were gray. Maybe it was some rat poison that they got into as a group. Maybe they were chained in a 130 degree barn with no water and only hop soaked grains to eat for a day. Maybe the three DVMs who wrote this hate beer and are doing their part to sabotage laws that are favorable to it. Maybe they all got anesthesia that day (an actual verified cause for MH.) I could go on endlessly. There are hundreds of possibilities. All of which would have equal credibility because, as you state very clearly, we simply cannot draw any scientific conclusions from such a small sampling.

I realize that I am coming off as completely "con" to your "pro" position. The fact is, when I read it I fully understand the term "extremely rare" and for me you have put enough caveats in it to make me understand that it is for all intents and purposes, a non-issue.

The reality though, is that by shining any light on it at all, (and we are now shining a 500W Klieg light since it is a sticky) we are dramatically bloating the significance of what is essentially a non-issue.

 

[Laughing_Gnome_Invisible]

Dontman....In my own experience, I have one dog, and one instance of said dog eating hops. Dog threw up. Therefore, 100% of my experience in this field indicates that Dogs eating hops is not good.

Our bodies reject poison by vomiting. That is the reason I am still alive today. My dog rejected hops by vomiting. OK, he didn't die, but this was one SINGLE hop pellet!

I can honestly see no reason for me to reject the majority concensus that hops are bad for dogs, and possibly lethal for them when I consider my own personal experiences versus your fuzzy logic.

 

[dontman]

THIS. We are looking at the "Internet forum effect" in this thread, although it was identified much earlier. One of the best is from the Republic of Plato, where he talks about speakers having their words and the response of the audience bounce among the rocks and be multiplied and amplified thereby, thus impressing all who hear of the importance and significance of what is said, no matter its true import. I suggest a sense of proportion here.

The one I like the best. I'm sure we've all seen those stickers on gas pumps warning of the explosion risk from using your cell phone. In fact there has never been an explosion, and it has been proven that cell phones are incapable of generating a spark significant enough to ignite gas fumes.

So why all the stickers? (millions of taxpayer dollars have been spent on those stickers, by the way.) The scare, and the resulting stickers, were the result of an internet prank.

People started the rumor to see if they could cause it to become part of accepted modern beliefs.

Small Gods exist and grow because someone believes in them.

 

[Laughing_Gnome_Invisible]

Dontman, I bet you tip coke machines just to spite the warning sticker.

 

[Dr_Deathweed]

Dontman, I don't think that I ever mentioned that paper as a study, and if I did, point it out so I can change it. That paper was a CASE REPORT which is used FREQUENTLY in medicine ESPECIALLY in the instances of RARE conditions. With that in mind you are correct that we don't KNOW everything about it, in fact I remember stating in the sticky "this is a poorly understood area of veterinary medicine," but that does not make it a non-issue.

The fact alone, that without the sticky, this issue popped up very regularly with a vast amount of misguided information and opinion begs that some good solid advice founded on current veterinary understanding of the situation be posted where everyone can see it. Am I trying to inflate the response to this, of course not! It was popping up frequently enough as is!

I understand your position of "we don't know everything about it, there are no solid studies, its very rare, so its a non-issue." I understand this completely, but not everyone out there is enlightened enough to do their own research, hence the sticky giving what information we know, and how rare it is.

Beyond this, I am failing to see where your major issue lies.

 

[bull8042]

Meet me on the "insult thread" I will unsay everything you didn't mention about the bits that I never said.

Oh yeah! I ain't unskeered! :rockin:

Back on topic, I have a dog that has eaten hops left over from the trub-dump as well as several pieces of chocolate on many occasions with no ill effects. 35lb Pit/Pointer mix vs 33lb 2 year old holding a Snickers..... like taking candy from a baby. I won't be supplementing her diet with chocolate covered hop pellets any time soon, but in our case, neither have been a problem.

 

[llazy_llama]

Small Gods exist and grow because someone believes in them.

If that's a Terry Pratchett reference, to you.

 

[Dr_Deathweed]

Back on topic, I have a dog that has eaten hops left over from the trub-dump as well as several pieces of chocolate on many occasions with no ill effects. 35lb Pit/Pointer mix vs 33lb 2 year old holding a Snickers..... like taking candy from a baby. I won't be supplementing her diet with chocolate covered hop pellets any time soon, but in our case, neither have been a problem.

Chocolate is a different issue entirely and is better understood. Chocolates contain a chemical called Theobromine which acts as the toxic agent with doses ~200mg/kg causing death in some animals. Now milk chocolate contains only 44mg/oz, so your 35lb dog would have to ingest 4.5lbs of milk chocolate to get bad toxic effects. Sure signs would be seen earlier than that, but it still takes A LOT of chocolate in a mid-large dog.

The issue with chocolate arises with small dogs and bakers chocolate. Bakers chocolate contains 390mg/oz of theobromine, so a small (think a 5lb yorkie) dog would only need about an oz to receive a lethal dose.

 

[dontman]

Dontman, I bet you tip coke machines just to spite the warning sticker.

Really funny. No, not Coke machines but I do purposefully use my cell phone when pumping gas. So far only one person has challenged me.

I do it as a form of civil disobedience against the public's blind trust in the written word simply because it is robed in scientific verbiage or seemingly official acceptance.

If that's a Terry Pratchett reference, to you.

Indeed it is. to you for recognizing.


And deathweed, nothing personal intended. Just having some fun. The irony, or hypocrisy if one chooses to judge me harshly, is that I want this topic to go away and die a quiet death yet I am doing more than my part to keep it at the forefront of people's minds. Oh well. sigh.

 

[Dr_Deathweed]

And deathweed, nothing personal intended. Just having some fun. The irony, or hypocrisy if one chooses to judge me harshly, is that I want this topic to go away and die a quiet death yet I am doing more than my part to keep it at the forefront of people's minds. Oh well. sigh.

Oh I understand that completely, you are just the most active conversation I have today and I am bored out of my mind.

 

[dontman]

Oh I understand that completely, you are just the most active conversation I have today and I am bored out of my mind.

Aye, the same reason I have for almost all of my strong stances on this forum. The fact is it is just beer brewing and while I love the hobby I don't feel any aspect of it is life and death.

P.S. I don't feed my dog hops as a protest if any of you are wondering.

 

[Laughing_Gnome_Invisible]

P.S. I don't feed my dog hops as a protest if any of you are wondering.

But you could always try it and let us know how it works out.....No risk involved, after all.

 

[dontman]

But you could always try it and let us know how it works out.....No risk involved, after all.

I also don't shave before the big game. And I wear my hat inside out to spur a rally.

When I was a child I did not step on cracks either; for fear that my Mother would be paralyzed.

I am just as susceptible to modern myths as anyone else. The instinct, after all, is buried deep in our primeval brains

 

[brrman]

I have personally seen a dog dying from hops ingestion - and its not pretty. Been there as my wife treated the dog (fairly hopelessly since they did not have any Dantrolene on hand).

Now milk chocolate contains only 44mg/oz, so your 35lb dog would have to ingest 4.5lbs of milk chocolate to get bad toxic effects. Sure signs would be seen earlier than that, but it still takes A LOT of chocolate in a mid-large dog.

While your facts are correct about theobromine, the numbers you quote can;t be held to exactness. It depends on the breed as well. We nearly lost our 90lb Irish Setter when he ate 3 lbs of Hershey milk chocolate bar (it was one of those really big bars). My wife (the vet) was still in school then but she knew what to do - he would have died if he had not gotten vet attention.

 

[conpewter]

If I was mean spirited I could test this out on some neighborhood dogs... but I couldn't/wouldn't ever do that.

 

[bull8042]

........ 3 lbs of Hershey milk chocolate bar (it was one of those really big bars).....

Now THAT is what I am talking about! I have to find one of those......FOR ME! Chocolate rush, here I come!

 

[Dr_Deathweed]

I have personally seen a dog dying from hops ingestion - and its not pretty. Been there as my wife treated the dog (fairly hopelessly since they did not have any Dantrolene on hand).



While your facts are correct about theobromine, the numbers you quote can;t be held to exactness. It depends on the breed as well. We nearly lost our 90lb Irish Setter when he ate 3 lbs of Hershey milk chocolate bar (it was one of those really big bars). My wife (the vet) was still in school then but she knew what to do - he would have died if he had not gotten vet attention.

You are correct, the values I used were the LD50's, but I didn't feel like explaining what that meant. A lethal dose to one dog is not necessarily a lethal dose to another. I also think I mentioned you would see toxic effects before that dose, but may not have made it clear. Thanks for pointing that out and muddying the waters for everyone else here

 

[dontman]

Ok, it appears I was wrong. Apparently there are people out there who leave poisons within reach for their dogs.

I have to ask, did you put out a nice bowl of antifreeze for him to wash down the chocolate bar?

 

[reim0027]

IMO - enough people were starting topics about hops poisoning to warrant a factual discussion about it. Deathweed's sticky did just that. It was pointed out hops poisoning is extremely rare and that hops, by themselves are not poisonous. IMO, if board-certified veterinary toxicologists think hops can cause MH, that is good enough for me. Veterinary medicine is not like human medicine. We rarely have huge study groups to research, and we do the best we can with our limited resources. Grapes and raisins are suspected in causing kidney failure, but we don't know why, nor do we have concrete proof. Just enough cases to believe they are the problem.

Deathweed was also talking about LD50 numbers for chocolate. Every dog is different. LD50 is kind of a guideline. It means that 50 percent of the dogs that ingest this poison at this dose will die. But each dog's personal tolerance is different. What if a dog had an underlying and undiagnosed heart condition? Chocolate would be much more dangerous.

Bottom line - you could do much worse than to listen to Deathweed on this issue. You could go to the internet and find gossip only. Or you could read Deathweed's thoughtful post and give it the credit it is due. Or, I guess you could ignore the post entirely and go about your life.

 

[JuanKenobi]

My dog has eaten chocolate in small quantities and been fine as well as a whole onion (a little smaller than a baseball) when she was only 6 months old and was fine. She actually did eat a small amount of spent hops that was stuck to the rim of the trash can after I dumped it. I thought about it for a second and dismissed it. She was, of course, fine, but I would rather have known about this at the time so I could at least watch for strange behavior. People might have a tendency to freak out about things, but that's no reason to keep information from them. As long as I know there might be a 1 in a billion chance that hops could harm my dog then I can be mindful of it. I get that a "hops will kill your dog" thread is a bit alarmist, but if a user has information about a possible risk (however minute) then they should definitely share it. For one, I am happy that I am now aware of this possible theoretical connection between hops and a slight possibility of harming my dog if she has a genetic disposition to some thing I've never heard of, because now she'll never eat hops again.

 

[Nunley]

I posted my initial warning because I sincerley wish someone else who had lost a dog to hop's poisoning had taken the time to do the same. Trust me, I'd rather have my dog back than to read some of the bitter banter that my posting has caused!! It's rare- but it happens. I also don't know what vets have to do to "officially" attribute a dog's death to hops ingestion. Our dogs ate everthing- even stuff that we went out of our way to keep out of their reach! they are dogs- they don't need a reson to eat things- cat poop with aromatic crystals and their own poop being cases in point. I didn't try to have beer/hops banned (big gasp!) I simply wish that when I entered a search for hops/dogs/poison/toxin... etc something real would have popped up. All I could find was beer brands that had the name dog in them. I would like to have known that there might be a danger so I could have taken my dog to the vet and pumped his stomach rather than wait with a false sense of security and then rush him to an emergency clinic and paid top dollar to lose him anyway. Coincidentally, the emergency vet had just returned from a vet conference in Hawaii (lol- there are never conference in my work there!) and been trained in the most up-to-date protocol on how to reverse the reaction. There wasn't enough time. The human drug that helps counter hyperthermia is generally only at Hospital pharmacies- not on hand at a vet's office. Again- I am real- not an urban legend. I didn't mean to cause contraversy- simply trying to spare someone else from going through the same pain.

 

[sjlammer]

Nunley, Sorry for your loss. A couple months ago i was brewing and dropped a single pellet on the ground. I thought nothing of it. two hours later i was getting ready for bed, and i noticed that my gfs schnauzer was laying down, panting like he had just run around the park for an hour. It didnt subside, and next thing i know, you know who is on the computer looking up dog poisons.... when low and behold, she stumbles across hops. Little Marley didn't die, but something physiological definitely happened... why else would he have been panting so hard.... just too much of a coincidence.

The vet said the thing to do was make the dog vomit by giving it hydrogen peroxide and running it around vigorously. Im not 100% sure, but i think the dosage is 1 tablespoon for every ten pounds. Tastes like ****, so i recommend having a syringe (no needle) to shoot it down his thoat.

Bottom line, don't give dogs hops. its bad... the death of a friend would be sad

 

[FireNightFly]

Ive noticed alot of post where a person says they have pets who are fine after eating hops or even drinking beer. I wont lie, ive poured my old dog a beer of two (god rest his soul, best friend I ever had) and he licked it up and had a good night. However, I think the idea here is long term. I suppose, like ciggies, one wont hurt ya, but pro-longed used will trigger problems.

BTW, I noticed a fellow poster saying he feed chocolate to his dog and he was fine, and this is what drew me to post. My best friend died, cause he ate an easter bunny, solid chocolate and had a mild heart attack. He was eventually put down =(, he no longer could control many functions. I keep him for a year and took after him like he did me, but after awhile it is rather expensive for a poor shmuck like me. Its the worst thing I ever had to do im my life..... and right now Im really missing him just taliing about it.

Please, do anything you can to protect you pets. They love us unconditionally and rely on us like children.

GDit, i miss my dog Buddy now! I hope he is there in heaven, and I see him in the afterlife.

 

[Monty420th]

-bump

wanted to bump this because this just happened to a friend of mine. The dog ended up getting on the counter and stealing a few pellets from the bag while he was not looking. The next morning the dog has a fever of 107 I think and was hospitalized for 1.5 days on cold IVs to get the temperature back down.

I didn't mean to bump this because of the above arguments relating to genetics and whatnot, only to get it back up to a recent post so some new brewers can take heed.

Be safe and keep the hops out of the reach of dogs when you are brewing, and when you are done straining everything, dump it in the trash and take it outside immediately (not sure about spent hops but I am sure they are not good either) and try and keep the whole hop leaf from falling on the ground as well

One of my dogs did eat some hops a few weeks back, we woke up the next morning and she was panting pretty good, luckily by lunch time she was back to normal...scary though

 

[slowjeep]

I also have had a scary situation regarding a dog and spent hops. Red, my 90lb doberman, got into the leftover junk(trub?) after I brewed a batch of beer. He spent a few hours panting heavily, like he had been out running around. He also seemed very anxious and restless.

Did my dog die, no. Was the trub good for him, NO. Did it scare the crap out of me, yes. If I would have had access to this article beforehand, you better believe that I would have been a lot more cautious. Thank you for posting it.

 

[jonbomb]

I do have a question.

My dog (leeloo) licked up some of the beer when I was bottling but as far as I know there was no actual hops in the beer itself ... Can this effect my dog?

BTW she vomitted maybe an hour or two later. She vommits when she eats a bone too fast.

 

[ThreeRatBastards]

I do have a question.

My dog (leeloo) licked up some of the beer when I was bottling but as far as I know there was no actual hops in the beer itself ... Can this effect my dog?

BTW she vomitted maybe an hour or two later. She vommits when she eats a bone too fast.

My dog loves bottling day because he gets to lick up my spilled mess. He's been doing so for several batches now and has had no ill effects. I've even fed him hydro samples as well as the not-quite-enough-to-fill-one-bottle leftovers from the bottling bucket.

TLDR: Your dog will be fine, though you might have a problem keeping her away on bottling day now

 

[Monty420th]

puppy should be fine...main thing to look for is if she starts panting for no reason...then start to worry