Damn flaked corn!!

[brewkinger]

Brewed Bass clone today (for the second time)

7.5 Maris Otter
2# flaked corn
8oz Cr60
8oz honey malt
1.5oz roasted barley

Both times I got a stuck sparge but yesterday's was ridiculous.
It was running so slowly that it took close to 45 min to get all my volume.

Does the corn have to milled?
I think that was my problem when I looked at the crush, I had a lot of smaller corn pieces and flour.



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[PastorofMuppets]

flaked corn does not and shouldnt be milled

 

[icebob]

i just did a cream of the 3 crops, and it took a while to get my volume and i use rice hulls, thanks god!

 

[Yooper]

I never have a problem with flaked corn. Weird that you do- maybe your false bottom just doesn't like sticky items?

Next time, try a cereal mash, and that will really help with lautering.

 

[brewkinger]

OK, so no milling the flaked corn.

Yooper: not to bring some noobiness back, but what exactly is a cereal mash?



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[govner1]

+1 on rice hulls!


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[brewkinger]

Another follow up question:

I am planning on doing the same brew next weekend and not going to be able to get to LHBS before then.
(90 min drive)

Are rice hulls available anyplace else?
Grocery store?

Will not milling the corn make that big of a difference?


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[Yooper]

OK, so no milling the flaked corn.

Yooper: not to bring some noobiness back, but what exactly is a cereal mash?



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A cereal mash is sort of putting your adjuncts together, with some two-row, and have it convert and then cooking it up and then adding it back to the mash. It really helps me when using things like corn and rice, although it's primarily used for unmalted cereals and not necessarily the flaked rice and corn. I've used it when I've used polenta for the flaked corn especially, and it worked great, but I have also done it with minute rice and flaked corn as well.

Here's a write up: https://byo.com/mashing/item/442-cereal-mashing-techniques

 

[Terek]

Try chewing it, like chicha
But seriously, I'm thinking of trying to make a chicha, anyone else think about this? I might start a thread about it for ideas

 

[Yooper]

Another follow up question:

I am planning on doing the same brew next weekend and not going to be able to get to LHBS before then.
(90 min drive)

Are rice hulls available anyplace else?
Grocery store?

Will not milling the corn make that big of a difference?


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I've never seen rice hulls anywhere but at homebrew stores.

Yes, not milling the flaked corn will help a lot!

 

[brewkinger]

Thank you again everyone.

So what am I losing by not milling the corn and just tossing it into the mash?

What quality does the corn add to the final product?

What am I gaining by doing a cereal mash? The quantities and percentages confused me in that BYO article.

I would take my 2# of flaked corn for my recipe (milled or unmilled?) and would add it to how much 2 row?
Heat it up to 158, wait 5 min and then bring it to a boil and then add it to te main mash.


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[icebob]

i ordered my rice hulls from AIH, usually 2 or 3 days later the brown truck knock at the door...

 

[brewkinger]

i ordered my rice hulls from AIH, usually 2 or 3 days later the brown truck knock at the door...

Looking it up online as we speak, rebel brewers new warehouse. An get it here by Friday.


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[Yooper]

Thank you again everyone.

So what am I losing by not milling the corn and just tossing it into the mash?

What quality does the corn add to the final product?

What am I gaining by doing a cereal mash? The quantities and percentages confused me in that BYO article.

I would take my 2# of flaked corn for my recipe (milled or unmilled?) and would add it to how much 2 row?
Heat it up to 158, wait 5 min and then bring it to a boil and then add it to te main mash.


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If you're using flaked corn, not milling it means not smooshing it up into a billion sticky pieces. That's it.

Corn provides fermentable sugars, but no maltiness so it lightens the body and mouthfeel of the beer.

Cereal mashing will help with the ultra- sticky flaked corn mash. It's generally no benefit using flaked grains (as opposed to unmalted cereal grains, rather than flaked)- but if you've got a sticky mess with the flaked corn, it's something that will help. It's not an exact science- use some two-row, and about 2-3 quarts of water per pound of grain and bring that up to saccrification rest temps, hold for 10 minutes, and then boil the snot out of it to make up a gruel.

That will be sticky, too- but if the cause of your lautering issues is the flaked corn, it's the only thing I can think of that should help (besides rice hulls!).

 

[brewkinger]

If you're using flaked corn, not milling it means not smooshing it up into a billion sticky pieces.

LOL!! I understand that Yooper.

What I guess I wanted to ask was, can I successfully throw the unmilled corn into the milled grains and mash as usual?
Will it get as "sticky"?

Will the end result be any different in terms of the contribution that the corn provides to the wort?


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[KOamps]

I made this clone too and got my first and only stuck sparge, thanks for the info on the cereal mash. Used the limited edition 1768 esb yeast and it was fantastic.


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[Yooper]

LOL!! I understand that Yooper.

What I guess I wanted to ask was, can I successfully throw the unmilled corn into the milled grains and mash as usual?
Will it get as "sticky"?

Will the end result be any different in terms of the contribution that the corn provides to the wort?


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Flaked grains don't need to be milled, but it won't hurt if you do (unless you get a stuck mash or sparge, that is!). If the grains are flaked, you don't generally mill them.

It gets pretty sticky, but not like oats does for me or a ton of unmalted wheat.

The end result is exactly the same, when using flaked corn. If you're using something like corn grits or cornmeal, then you generally have to do a cereal mash.

 

[Terek]

Flaked grains don't need to be milled, but it won't hurt if you do (unless you get a stuck mash or sparge, that is!). If the grains are flaked, you don't generally mill them.

It gets pretty sticky, but not like oats does for me or a ton of unmalted wheat.

The end result is exactly the same, when using flaked corn. If you're using something like corn grits or cornmeal, then you generally have to do a cereal mash.

Like when I do a oat stout, I make sure the LHBS keeps the flaked oats in a separate bag, so when I get home, they don't go in the mill

 

[hunter306]

+100 on rice hulls. Stuck my first batch something fierce with corn and oats.

Since then I toss a big handful of rice hulls in my batches using those ingredients and I've had zero problems! Best of luck on that next batch.

 

[brewkinger]

+100 on rice hulls.
Since then I toss a big handful of rice hulls in my batches using those ingredients and I've had zero problems!

Thank you everyone. I have an additional question:
I looked rice hulls up on AIH and Rebel Brewer.
How does a single handful of what I saw in the pictures on the website work magic in that mash tun?

Do they bind to the sticky things and make them not so sticky?

Color me confused but interested in learning about the specifics.



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[Yooper]

The rice hulls just take up space.

That's it!

But it works as they fill the spaces between the grains so when the grainbed settles, it doesn't turn into a piece of concrete.

 

[brewkinger]

So were talking more than just a handful?



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[Yooper]

So were talking more than just a handful?



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I use about three big handfuls (but I have very small hands!) for a 10 gallon batch for my HERMS in all batches- more if I have a ton of rye as that is some very sticky stuff!

 

[pjj2ba]

I always mill my flaked grains. I also use a protein rest. This helps to make the corn less gummy. I very rarely get a stuck mash. I also tend to mash on the thin side.

I'm assuming you are fly sparging. Try adding a little extra water after the mash before starting the sparge. I would also recommend starting the sparge (well vorlauf) promptly after giving the mash a final stir. Once you start to drain, that kinda locks all the leftover grain bits, husks etc. in the grain bed into place. If you wait a long time after stirring, then the large bits settle to the bottom, and then smaller and so on with the smallest (protein scum) on top by the time you start to sparge. It is the smallest pieces that gum up the works. If these form a nice layer (well, not so nice) in the grain bed it slows down flow. It is best if you can get all particle sizes uniformly distributed throughout the grain bed. That will give you the best flow.

 

[kombat]

I always throw 1 scoop of rice hulls in every batch I brew, by default.

If the recipe contains ingredients notorious for gumming up the mash (rye, corn, wheat, flaked oats), then I add a couple more scoops. It's dirt-cheap insurance. A year and a half ago, I bought a half-sack of rice hulls as part of a group buy with my local homebrew club. I might be halfway through my supply by now.

 

[govner1]

So were talking more than just a handful?



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I match the volume (not weight) of the rice hulls to the volume of corn, rye, wheat, oats, or whatever I'm using that can gum up my tun & give me stuck sparge.

 

[rmyurick]

That sounds like a lot of corn to me--most of the stuff I've read suggests 10-15% maximum. And Maris Otter, and pale ale malt in general, has a lower diastatic power than brewer's malt or 6-row.

That said, I'd be much interested in hearing more about the recipe & how it tastes when it's ready. Thinking about attempting a clone myself--I miss the old (pre-ABInbev) Bass.

 

[westchesterBrewer]

I have done a mash of 60% flaked corn, 20% rye, 20% barley. 10 lbs total grain bill. I used 1lb rice hulls, soaked them overnight (rinsed them a few times) and added them in during dough in. I had a perfect lauter as if it were 100% barley. I have done a cereal mash of the flaked corn or just added it to my grain and not noticed any difference in sugar extraction. The only time I noticed I got more sugar extraction was when I used some chemical amalyase enzyme to help with conversion. But same result with the lauter with the pre soaked and rinsed rice hulls.

+100,000,000 on rice hulls!

 

[November]

Are rice hulls available anyplace else?
Grocery store?

A good feed and tack store will have rice hulls. You will probably have to buy a sack that will last you a lifetime but it is pretty cheap.

 

[LLBrewer]

If you're mashing in a cylindrical cooler, get a big grain bag and mash in that. You'll never have another stuck sparge, you won't need to vorlouf, and clean up will be a bit easier (if not a wash).

 

[msa8967]

What type of filter system are you using with your cooler?

 

[BigEd]

Brewed Bass clone today (for the second time)

7.5 Maris Otter
2# flaked corn
8oz Cr60
8oz honey malt
1.5oz roasted barley

Both times I got a stuck sparge but yesterday's was ridiculous.
It was running so slowly that it took close to 45 min to get all my volume.

Does the corn have to milled?
I think that was my problem when I looked at the crush, I had a lot of smaller corn pieces and flour.



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I'm late to this and while your questions have already been addressed here is my take: Even with 20% flaked maize you shouldn't have any mashing or sparging problems without the addition of rice hulls. How are you adding the flakes? The best way, in my experience, is to mix the flakes with the dry, malted and milled grains prior to mashing in. This distributes the flakes among the malt fragments nicely and just about eliminates any clumping or sticking problems. I use a cooler with plastic manifold and a conventional sparge but I would think it should work well with any system or method.

 

[brewkinger]

I'm late to this and while your questions have already been addressed here is my take: Even with 20% flaked maize you shouldn't have any mashing or sparging problems without the addition of rice hulls. How are you adding the flakes? The best way, in my experience, is to mix the flakes with the dry, malted and milled grains prior to mashing in. This distributes the flakes among the malt fragments nicely and just about eliminates any clumping or sticking problems. I use a cooler with plastic manifold and a conventional sparge but I would think it should work well with any system or method.

I think the biggest reason for this problem on this batch was a brainfart at 530am and milled the flaked corn along with all the other grains.

But the prior 2 times that I have made this recipe, I have had issues with sticky mash. I made this batch again one week afterwards and threw 3 cups of hulls in and it went completely better.


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