Crooked Stave St. Bretta; Help me Deconstruct

[brewjack]

I just tried Crooked Stave's St. Bretta today and man, was that thing good!
I know it's 100% brett,
spends time in oak,
I read somewhere that Chad generally uses about 8% oats,
and the bottle I drank had Blood oranges.
Seems like I'm pretty far along, but what really surprised me in that beer was the sourness. Judging by the label reading 100% brett, I'm thinking that they don't add lacto, so where's it coming from? Resident in the barrels? Sourmalt? Sourmash? Or is that tang actually from the brett? If so, how do I make my brett do that-because it's delicious.

Anyone know? Have guesses or experience?

 

[J-Pizzel]

They have multiple versions. I was amazed by the Fall version. Have several of the Summers waiting at home. No idea how to help you though...

 

[BootsyFlanootsy]

you might consider contacting chad personally. he seems very open about his techniques and processes. I'd imagine these are difficult beers to "clone" but I'd be willing to bet he'd steer you in the right direction.

also: perhaps the tartness was from the blood oranges?

 

[brewjack]

you might consider contacting chad personally. he seems very open about his techniques and processes. I'd imagine these are difficult beers to "clone" but I'd be willing to bet he'd steer you in the right direction.

Yeah, I may do just that. Wanted to see if anyone here knew anything or had enough experience with different souring techniques that they could tell.

also: perhaps the tartness was from the blood oranges?

Maybe, it does have a very tannic tartness that seems like it could have come from the citrus. Kind of like grapefruit to my palate. But that seems like an odd way to get the tartness, because I think you would have to use the juice, and normally wits are just using zest.

 

[fivepoundpossum]

i know that everyone hastens to say that brett doesn't produce acidity, but i've had some experiences recently that don't conform to this oft repeated statement. in my experience some strains (brett brux var. trois, some of the crooked stave bretts) do actually produce a tartness. not super sour per se (like a gueuze), but a fruit-like tartness that's really nice. also, some brett has been shown to produce acetic acid in the presence of oxygen.

i've been considering experimenting with dosing a brett batch with a minute of oxygen toward the end of fermentation to introduce a hint of acidity. anyone else try this?

 

[brewjack]

I heard that about O2 and brett, but have no experience. There is a blog I follow where the guy did a side by side exposing 100% brett with and without O2 (bear-flavored.com).

 

[Thorpe429]

Yeah, I may do just that. Wanted to see if anyone here knew anything or had enough experience with different souring techniques that they could tell.



Maybe, it does have a very tannic tartness that seems like it could have come from the citrus. Kind of like grapefruit to my palate. But that seems like an odd way to get the tartness, because I think you would have to use the juice, and normally wits are just using zest.

I believe I read somewhere that Chad does use some of the juice as well in these beers. I'll see if I can find a link.

EDIT: Here's a post from the Crooked Stave website that shows them juicing the Tangelos for the St. Bretta Spring: http://www.crookedstave.com/2013/04/st-bretta-brew-day/

 

[brewjack]

I believe I read somewhere that Chad does use some of the juice as well in these beers. I'll see if I can find a link.

EDIT: Here's a post from the Crooked Stave website that shows them juicing the Tangelos for the St. Bretta Spring: http://www.crookedstave.com/2013/04/st-bretta-brew-day/

Neat! You can also see the whole fruit it that bag in the boil kettle. I guess that sort of answers when the citrus is added.

 

[TNGabe]

Find the last st bretta thread on here. Someone else emailed him and posted his responce. Some of the st bretta has bugs.

 

[J343MY]

Find the last st bretta thread on here. Someone else emailed him and posted his responce. Some of the st bretta has bugs.

This is correct. He said there is a resident bacteria strain in St. Bretta, which would explain the sourness.

 

[Gus_13]

Bumping old thread. Has anyone ever thought up a recipe for something like this? I have been using citrus in saisons and loving it. I'd like to do a witbier and ferment with Brett Trois to see what would come out. I'm assuming Pils/Wheat and a bit of Oats. But not too sure there. I know he only uses hops to 8-20ish IBUs in his beers.

 

[metic]

In the May/June 2012 issue of Zymurgy, there's an article by Chad that includes a couple of recipes, one for a wit. I've assumed this is an early version of St. Bretta. There's also a recipe for a baltic porter (= early version of Nightmare on Brett Street?), plus the farmhouse ale you can find online. If you can find a copy of that, it might give you some ideas. I could probably type up a version later today if you can't find it.

 

[brewjack]

I wound up emailing him. I wasn't looking to clone it exactly, I was really just looking to get some of the overall citrus character. Anyway, here's what I wrote:
Hi,

I've been really impressed with the citrus character in the St. Bretta beers I've tried. I love the zesty, slightly tannic character. I want to brew a little sessionable Saison, and I'd really like a push in the right direction to get that character.

Looking over the photos on your sight I saw that you zest and juice the citrus. I also saw pics of rinds in the kettle.

I'm thinking of zesting and juicing about 1/2 pound of oranges/tangerines (5 gallon batch at 1.040), and adding the whole mess in (juice, zest, rinds and all), during the hop stand along with a half oz of Galaxy and a half oz of Goldings. Letting that steep at 160* for 10min before cooling and pitching.

Does this sound like a good approach? I'm wondering about the juice, if maybe I should leave it out? And if 2 pounds is a bit heavy handed.

Thanks for any help you can give,

Jack

And what he wrote back:

Hey Jack,

1/2 pound sounds good to me for what you're looking to accomplish.

We use the zest and juice but stay away from the rind as it adds astringency and bitterness. Zest very finely!

Cheers,
Chad

I also found that Hill Farmstead's Brother Soigne had a similar citrus character, so I sent him an email:

Hi,

I recently got to try a bottle of Brother Soigne, and I have to say, I thought it was one of the tastiest beers I'd every had! I loved the long-lasting citrus character and vaguely tannic quality.

I'm planning to brew a low gravity, citrusy Saison. I spent a long time browsing the web seeing if Shaun Hill gave away any of his secrets/brewing techniques. No suck luck. But I did see on a Reddit interview that you'll give advice on recipes. So, here's what I'm planning, can you give me a shove in any direction? I'm most curious about how to deal with the citrus.

Anticipated OG 1.040
5 gallon batch

75% Pilsner Malt
10% Rye Malt
10% White Wheat Malt
5% Acid Malt

90 min boil

15 IBU bittering addition at 60min
5 IBU Styrian Goldings at 10

Cool to 160*, add 2 pounds oranges/tangerines (zested and juiced, adding all parts) plus .5 oz galaxy and .5 oz Styrian Goldings

Steep 10 min,

Cool to 70*

Pitch saison and brett.

Any help would be hugely appriciated!

Thank you,

Jack

He said this:

Looks like a great recipe to me!
Just make sure you have plenty of healthy and viable yeast cells and that you oxygenate well!
Send us a bottle =)


But searching around the internet I found an article or two where Shaun discusses ICU's (international citrus units), his own way of measuring the citrus character in beers. There wasn't much info, but for the one or two beers he listed the ICU's, you could figure back how much zest (by weight) he adds (but not when). Using his calculation, my batch had about 5 times (if memory serves) how much citrus zest he uses for beers with a strong citrus character, (tho I'm guessing he adds the zest at knockout, not 160* like I did.)

Anyway, the recipe I posted is coming out well, but like I said, it's not exactly a clone. The citrus is in the right range. However, if I were to do it over I might use a little less at knockout so that I could have more predictable results. Also, the brett character in this batch is really shining, I'm not sure if that's the result of the Acid Malt or the Saison strain in the blend (WLP670).

Hope some of that helps!

 

[Gus_13]

Wow this is awesome! I was actually wanting to use Galaxy and Citra in my witbier. I was thinking of no hops in the boil and then adding them in at knock out. So thanks for the info you provided. I too wasn't looking for an exact clone but something I could build off of. This is very similar to what I did with my Minneola Saison a couple months back. The Orange character is still shinning in that beer. Maybe I can hit a home run with a beer fermented with 100% Brett Trois and add in the citrus and citrusy hops to get something pleasant.

Thanks again for that!

 

[Gus_13]

Going to go with this. I'll try this out then next time maybe add a bit of oak in there and some lacto so simulate fermenting in oak. Adding the zest of Valencia oranges (about 1/2 lb like you figured) and the citra/galaxy hops in the knock out for 20 min or so.


Recipe: Brett Witbier
Brewer: Gus
Asst Brewer:
Style: Witbier
TYPE: All Grain
Taste: (30.0)

Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Boil Size: 7.89 gal
Post Boil Volume: 6.76 gal
Batch Size (fermenter): 5.50 gal
Bottling Volume: 4.75 gal
Estimated OG: 1.044 SG
Estimated Color: 3.1 SRM
Estimated IBU: 13.0 IBUs
Brewhouse Efficiency: 70.00 %
Est Mash Efficiency: 82.7 %
Boil Time: 60 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amt Name Type # %/IBU
4 lbs Pilsner (2 Row) Ger (2.0 SRM) Grain 1 42.1 %
4 lbs White Wheat Malt (2.4 SRM) Grain 2 42.1 %
1 lbs Oats, Flaked (1.0 SRM) Grain 3 10.5 %
0.50 oz Citra [12.00 %] - Steep/Whirlpool 20.0 Hop 4 6.0 IBUs
0.50 oz Galaxy [14.00 %] - Steep/Whirlpool 20.0 Hop 5 7.0 IBUs
1.0 pkg Brettanomyces Bruxellensis Trois (White Yeast 6 -
8.0 oz Fruit - Orange (0.0 SRM) Adjunct 7 5.3 %


Mash Schedule: Single Infusion, Light Body, Batch Sparge
Total Grain Weight: 9 lbs 8.0 oz
----------------------------
Name Description Step Temperat Step Time
Mash In Add 14.45 qt of water at 161.1 F 152.0 F 75 min

Sparge: Batch sparge with 2 steps (Drain mash tun , 6.16gal) of 168.0 F water
Notes:
------

 

[finsfan]

Thanks for this info! I will certainly be brewing something to this extent in the near future (once I brew everything else I have planned). Crooked stave is easily my favorite brewing company andSt. Bretta is fantastic. Id have to say the Winter in my favorite, but this years summer is amazing, as are the rest of their beers! Thanks again for the leg work. Cheers.

 

[brewjack]

Going to go with this. I'll try this out then next time maybe add a bit of oak in there and some lacto so simulate fermenting in oak. Adding the zest of Valencia oranges (about 1/2 lb like you figured) and the citra/galaxy hops in the knock out for 20 min or so.


Recipe: Brett Witbier
Brewer: Gus
Asst Brewer:
Style: Witbier
TYPE: All Grain
Taste: (30.0)

Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Boil Size: 7.89 gal
Post Boil Volume: 6.76 gal
Batch Size (fermenter): 5.50 gal
Bottling Volume: 4.75 gal
Estimated OG: 1.044 SG
Estimated Color: 3.1 SRM
Estimated IBU: 13.0 IBUs
Brewhouse Efficiency: 70.00 %
Est Mash Efficiency: 82.7 %
Boil Time: 60 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amt Name Type # %/IBU
4 lbs Pilsner (2 Row) Ger (2.0 SRM) Grain 1 42.1 %
4 lbs White Wheat Malt (2.4 SRM) Grain 2 42.1 %
1 lbs Oats, Flaked (1.0 SRM) Grain 3 10.5 %
0.50 oz Citra [12.00 %] - Steep/Whirlpool 20.0 Hop 4 6.0 IBUs
0.50 oz Galaxy [14.00 %] - Steep/Whirlpool 20.0 Hop 5 7.0 IBUs
1.0 pkg Brettanomyces Bruxellensis Trois (White Yeast 6 -
8.0 oz Fruit - Orange (0.0 SRM) Adjunct 7 5.3 %


Mash Schedule: Single Infusion, Light Body, Batch Sparge
Total Grain Weight: 9 lbs 8.0 oz
----------------------------
Name Description Step Temperat Step Time
Mash In Add 14.45 qt of water at 161.1 F 152.0 F 75 min

Sparge: Batch sparge with 2 steps (Drain mash tun , 6.16gal) of 168.0 F water
Notes:
------

Recipe looks good to me, I'd just be cautious with the whole 1/2# like I did (I had a full .88 oz of zest). I think one of the main reasons it's working for me is I had the knock out temp so low (if memory serves, I overshot my 160* mark, and actually went down to 120* and then brought it back up).

 

[Gus_13]

Recipe looks good to me, I'd just be cautious with the whole 1/2# like I did (I had a full .88 oz of zest). I think one of the main reasons it's working for me is I had the knock out temp so low (if memory serves, I overshot my 160* mark, and actually went down to 120* and then brought it back up).

Ok I'll definitely be cautious of that. Honestly it will probably be more juice and pulp than zest. I'll zest them but end up using half of the oranges zest. I did that in my saison with minneolas and it worked well. I like including the juice as it brought the saison up to another level that I hadn't gotten before. I'm just really interested how the 100% brett fermentation will do with this. Should be about 4 weeks fermenting and a week or so clearing.

If this works out I have a ton of recipes in my head for different fruits in a 100% brett beer.