Critique my all-grain process

[localhost]

So, it seems like anyone you ask has a different answer for how to brew all-grain, so i figured i'll post what i'm doing, and you guys can tell me what i'm doing wrong. I know a lot of steps will vary depending on the type of beer, for reference in this post i'm referring to an imperial stout i did last week.

I have two 15 gallon pots (mash tun and boil kettle) and a 7.5 gallon pot (HLT). The tun has a false bottom, and i have a rotating sparge arm. I brew 5 gallon batches, usually shooting for around 8 gallons pre-boil.

I typically heat my mash water (8 gallons) directly in the tun and then add the grain. I heat to about 165-170 and try to end up at about 155 after adding the grain. I stir it around a bit to make sure everything is saturated, and then put the lid on and give it an hour. For reference, the water ends up an inch or two above the grain. Towards the end of the hour i heat up my sparge water, about 3-4 gallons heated to 170. I have not been doing any sort of batch sparge or vourlauf, i just drain and sparge with the arm. I will run the sparge water through until either the runoff is pretty clear or i've hit my desired volume.

At this point the rest is basic, i boil and do my hop additions, then immersion chill and rack/pitch.

The reason i'm posting is because i'm new to all grain and am running into what feels like a pretty bad efficiency issue. The most recent one beersmith estimated to have an OG of 1.103, and it ended up at 1.046. I tasted it a little bit ago and it's good but a little weak. Not done fermenting yet so still unsure on the FG. I realize this was a pretty high OG, this was partially to compensate for what i know is a partially inefficient process.

One thing i did find recently is that i've been doing my sparge way too fast, so i will definitely change that in the future. Aside from that, anything that i'm doing obviously wrong?

 

[erikhild59]

Can you post the recipe? Also, who crushes your grain? Have you calibrated your thermometers/hydrometers? And compensated for the temp? Seems like you would be in the 20~21lb range to get 1.103.

 

[Tall_Yotie]

I am not terribly familiar with fly sparging as you are doing, but you do want to make sure your water in rate is the same as the water out rate.

Have you had a lot of efficiency issues with previous batches? Is your grain crush good?

If you have been having efficiency issues on all of your batches, you may want to try batch sparging so as to remove that variable.

 

[shortyjacobs]

How do you maintain temps during the mash? Is your MLT insulated? RIMS/HERMS?

Your sparge should take 20-30 min, slower is better.

Also, though it doesn't affect efficiency, why no vorlauf?

 

[arch1tect]

You said you are brewing 5 gallon batches but you are mashing with 8 gallons of water? How large is that grain bill? To have 8 gallons of water you'd need a rather large grain bill and this does affect efficiency. For anything over 25lbs I'm about 62% while during smaller grain bills I'm closer to 80%.


Your mash should be about 1.25 qt/lb. Which most 5 gallon batches fall in the 3 gallon mark. Now I know you have a false bottom so you need to add that in as dead space but still. 8 gallons seems a bit extreme.

 

[localhost]

Can you post the recipe? Also, who crushes your grain? Have you calibrated your thermometers/hydrometers? And compensated for the temp? Seems like you would be in the 20~21lb range to get 1.103.

I don't have the recipe in front of me, but it was a little over 20 pounds of grain total, 15 of pale malt, the rest a mix of roasted barley, carafa ii, and chocolate malt. I have two separate thermometers that seem to be pretty accurate (one in the MLT, one loose one). My hydrometer is accurate in water, not sure if there's a better test. I did compensate for the temp, though sometimes i have to add some direct heat depending on how far i'm off with the grain temp.

Have you had a lot of efficiency issues with previous batches? Is your grain crush good?

I've only done two all grain batches prior to this, both of which came out lighter than expected. I don't remember the gravity readings on those as i was more concerned with the process itself and not the efficiency, however they were lower than expected. I've been ordering grain pre-milled, both from northern brewer and morebeer. It seemed pretty well crushed, though i probably wouldn't know the difference.

How do you maintain temps during the mash? Is your MLT insulated? RIMS/HERMS?
Your sparge should take 20-30 min, slower is better.
Also, though it doesn't affect efficiency, why no vorlauf?

MLT is not insulated but it's a pretty thick pot, and with the top on i rarely need to add any heat to it (if i do, it's with a propane stove). My sparge was definitely faster than that (usually about 10 minutes) so i know i need to slow that down from now on. As for vorlauf, i guess i will start doing that. The main reason i didn't do it before is because i didn't want to risk any channeling by pouring it back on top, but i'll give it a shot next time.

You said you are brewing 5 gallon batches but you are mashing with 8 gallons of water? How large is that grain bill? To have 8 gallons of water you'd need a rather large grain bill and this does affect efficiency. For anything over 25lbs I'm about 62% while during smaller grain bills I'm closer to 80%.
Your mash should be about 1.25 qt/lb. Which most 5 gallon batches fall in the 3 gallon mark. Now I know you have a false bottom so you need to add that in as dead space but still. 8 gallons seems a bit extreme.

A little over 20 pounds of grain for this batch. My pot is fairly wide and does have a large amount of deadspace below the false bottom, so part of it is to compensate for that. I did a batch with 15 pounds of grain and ~6 galllons of water and it wasn't enough water to fully cover the mash. The next one i did was about the same amount of grain and 7 gallons of water, which was barely enough, so this time i did 8 gallons.


Thanks for the replies guys

 

[erikhild59]

I would try this: calculate exactly how much water you need to compensate for the dead space in your mash tun. Calculate your liquor to grist ratio, i.e 1.25qts/lb. Add the compensating water plus the liquor. Mash. Determine sparge water amount. Subtract compensating amount from this. Collect wort. Boil down to 5.5 gals. Check gravity. I would also try a smaller batch , around 10 lbs. You should come in around 1.050.

 

[arch1tect]

3 gallons of dead space is quite a lot. You may want to look at modifying your FB(cutting down the legs). Like what erik said, you should compensate for it but if you still come in low, you know your efficiency isn't good so you can adjust your grain bill to match.

 

[localhost]

3 gallons of dead space is quite a lot. You may want to look at modifying your FB(cutting down the legs). Like what erik said, you should compensate for it but if you still come in low, you know your efficiency isn't good so you can adjust your grain bill to match.

The last time i measured it, it was somewhere around 2.5 gallons below the FB. I will do a more accurate measurement to see how much it actually is. As of right now the FB is pretty much as low as it can go, as it's a pretty wide pot and the spigot is also as low as it should have been put.

Edit: i don't mind adjusting my grain bill to compensate for it if that's what i have to do, but that's more or less what i was already trying to do, so that's why i'm trying to figure out how to get more efficiency.

 

[erikhild59]

You could make a slotted copper manifold that lays on the bottom of the mlt. This would solve the deadspace issue. In any recipe there is a finite amount of water to be used. In your case, it may be that the water you're using to compensate for dead space would be better spent as sparge water , to really rinse the mash of sugars.

 

[JuanMoore]

I stir it around a bit to make sure everything is saturated, and then put the lid on and give it an hour.

You really need to stir more than "a bit". You want to stir very thoroughly to get all of the grain wet and make sure that there aren't any doughballs. Stir until you think this has happened, and then stir some more. It takes longer/more stirring than you might think. This also makes sure that temperatures are evenly distributed throughout the tun, and that your temperature reading is accurate.

For reference, the water ends up an inch or two above the grain.

For super high gravity beers like this, you really want to mash a little thicker so that you have enough sparge water available to get a decent lauter efficiency. For more average gravity beers a thinner mash with a few inches of standing water above the grain is fine.

Towards the end of the hour i heat up my sparge water, about 3-4 gallons heated to 170.

If you're doing a fly sparge, which it kinda sounds like you are, you need to perform a mash out first to raise the grain bed temp to ~170, and then sparge with ~170F water to keep the temp there. You also don't need to drain the tun before starting the sparge for fly sparging. Fly sparging uses a long slow soak to dissolve the sugars into solution, which happens much more efficiently at higher temperatures. You don't really need to worry about it if you batch sparge though.

I have not been doing any sort of batch sparge or vourlauf, i just drain and sparge with the arm. I will run the sparge water through until either the runoff is pretty clear or i've hit my desired volume.

Vorlaufing will aid in clarity, and can help prevent some tannnin extraction issues if a lot of husk material makes it into the BK, but it shouldn't have any effect on efficiency. You're going to have terrible lauter efficiency unless you either batch sparge, or do a proper fly sparge though. Just draining the tun and then half-assedly running a little water through is going to do a pretty poor job of rinsing the sugars from the grain, which results in poor efficiency.

One thing i did find recently is that i've been doing my sparge way too fast, so i will definitely change that in the future.

Yep, either mash out and then slow the fly sparge down so that it takes at least 45 min (preferably an hour) to reach your pre-boil volume, or try batch sparging. FWIW, batch sparging is much easier to do properly than fly sparging, and IMO often yeilds better results for those new to AG brewing.

Aside from that, anything that i'm doing obviously wrong?

Even with innadequate stirring at dough in and poor sparge technique, the numbers you posted seem pretty low. One of the biggest factors relating to efficiency is the crush of the grain, so I'd guess that a finer crush would help your efficiency quite a bit. Where are you buying your grains, and how are they being crushed?

 

[wncbrewer]

I would guess that your crush is at worst decent coming from northern brewer and morebeer, both are very reputable retailers. I would recommend doing a search for Denny Conn's 50/50 batch sparge method. It is a very simple approach to calculating strike and sparge volumes and has worked very well for me.

Take your desired preboil volume and divide by two.

Add enough water to account for grain absorbtion, roughly .1 gal/lb of grain in my system depending on humidity.

Then add enough water to account for deadspace in the system.

The resulting volume is for your mash.

Then your sparge volume is half of you desired boil volume.

Denny has a much more detailed write up which I found to be very straightforward when I first started all grain. I get efficiencies in the high seventies doing this with standard gravity beers. For high gravity/large grain bills, I mash a little thicker to shift some of the percentage toward the sparge, and usually get right at 70%. I have done about 20 batches like this and have had great luck, but hope some of you seasoned vets out there will correct me if I'm wrong. There is a wealth of knowledge on this forum...cheers...wnc

 

[cootball]

I typically heat my mash water (8 gallons) directly in the tun and then add the grain. I heat to about 165-170 and try to end up at about 155 after adding the grain. I stir it around a bit to make sure everything is saturated, and then put the lid on and give it an hour. For reference, the water ends up an inch or two above the grain. Towards the end of the hour i heat up my sparge water, about 3-4 gallons heated to 170. I have not been doing any sort of batch sparge or vourlauf, i just drain and sparge with the arm. I will run the sparge water through until either the runoff is pretty clear or i've hit my desired volume.

From what I can tell this is where you are running into your problem. Your strike water volume shouldn't be higher than your sparge water volume. At least in any case I've ever experienced. I would think with that much strike water you are probably pouring a lot of highly diluted wort back into your kettle, and sparging only until you reach desired volume, which wouldn't be much with 8 gallons of strike water for a 5 gallon batch. Try starting with a 1.25 qt/lb ratio. 10 lbs of grain = a little over 3 gallons for your strike. Then take your strike volume times 1.5 (around 4 and a half gallons). Don't know if anyone has mentioned this as I am too lazy to read the entire thread. I am far from and expert but this method has worked for me thus far, and I think it might be why your efficiency is so far out of whack.