Craft beer: honeymoon period over?

[Arbitrator]

As craft beer starts gushing, its essence gets watered down

Dan Del Grande, owner and brewer of Bison Organic Beer, based in Berkeley, Calif., feelsthe allowance of rice, corn and other alternative sugar sources as main ingredients in craft brewing will compromise the beer.

"I think the Brewers Association has watered down the meaning of craft beer, and of good beer," he says.

He's got an interesting point, since the upper limit of craft beer is basically adjusted to "slightly more than whatever Sam Adams makes" every year. Still, I see the value of keeping the founding members in the club. I'm surprised he's actually complaining publicly -- I guess the honeymoon period is over.

Also, the "Volume Share for Craft Brewers" part of this graphic annoys the **** out of me due to its inflated y-axis.

 

[davey101]

Yes. You can find me over on talkmead.com

 

[stupac2]

As craft beer starts gushing, its essence gets watered down



He's got an interesting point, since the upper limit of craft beer is basically adjusted to "slightly more than whatever Sam Adams makes" every year. Still, I see the value of keeping the founding members in the club. I'm surprised he's actually complaining publicly -- I guess the honeymoon period is over.

Also, the "Volume Share for Craft Brewers" part of this graphic annoys the **** out of me due to its inflated y-axis.

Somehow it dropped out in your quote, but that guy's the founder of Bison. I'd take his complaints about quality a bit more seriously if his beer weren't terrible.

Anyway, there's potentially an interesting discussion to be had here, but I just don't see why it matters. Even the average informed consumer doesn't really know wtf the BA is or what it does or who's in their club, so does their definition matter at all?

 

[Arbitrator]

Somehow it dropped out in your quote, but that guy's the founder of Bison. I'd take his complaints about quality a bit more seriously if his beer weren't terrible.

Thanks, fixed. And very much agreed on Bison being terrible. I liked this quote:

Del Grande thinks breweries that make more than about 200,000 barrels of beer per year should not be recognized as craft. They especially should not be receiving the lobbying and marketing support that the Brewers Association offers to craft breweries, he says.

"Frankly, those guys don't need the help," he says.

"But I need all the help I can get. I mean, have you tasted my beer?" he went on to add in a fictional world.

 

[litheum94]

Somehow it dropped out in your quote, but that guy's the founder of Bison. I'd take his complaints about quality a bit more seriously if his beer weren't terrible.

Beat me to it. I saw Bison Brewing and immediately quit reading.

 

[litheum94]

Thanks, fixed. And very much agreed on Bison being terrible. I liked this quote:



"But I need all the help I can get. I mean, have you tasted my beer?" he went on to add in a fictional world.

If breweries at the same quality level as Bison are considered craft and Sierra Nevada and Lagunitas aren't, I think I'll switch to drinking non-craft beer.

 

[TomTwanks1]

Bison Organic ****. Had one and almost puked.

 

[stupac2]

If breweries at the same quality level as Bison are considered craft and Sierra Nevada and Lagunitas aren't, I think I'll switch to drinking non-craft beer.

I mean, this is exactly it. No one cares. If you make good beer people will buy it. Look at Goose Island, that ABI buyout got so much panties bunched, but in the end BCBS still sold out everywhere immediately. ****, I'm drinking one right now and it's amazing. It doesn't matter how big the brewer is, if they can be big and make good beer then more people can drink good beer!

 

[user 306809]

If a batch results in more than 100 cases and its distribution makes it outside the county, it ain't worth my time anyhow.

 

[Josh2]

I always find it funny that the owners/brewers/what have you of breweries that brew mediocre at best beers always make the most noxious noise in the brewing world.
Locally, the owner/brewer at Lengthwise makes the most foul noise imaginable. All because he isn't getting the market share he thinks he deserves When in actuality, his beers completely suck and that's why he's not getting the sales he thinks he should be. He is after all "the only local brewery".

 

[stupac2]

I always find it funny that the owners/brewers/what have you of breweries that brew mediocre at best beers always make the most noxious noise in the brewing world.

Yeah, like Shaun Hill!

 

[user 306809]

I always find it funny that the owners/brewers/what have you of breweries that brew mediocre at best beers always make the most noxious noise in the brewing world.
Locally, the owner/brewer at Lengthwise makes the most foul noise imaginable. All because he isn't getting the market share he thinks he deserves When in actuality, his beers completely suck and that's why he's not getting the sales he thinks he should be. He is after all "the only local brewery".

I've never heard of that brewery so the noise must not be that loud.

 

[Josh2]

I've never heard of that brewery so the noise must not be that loud.

That is why I prefaced it by stating "locally,". The only reason someone would know the name outside of the region is because of a trade extra.

 

[sacrelicio]

Thanks, fixed. And very much agreed on Bison being terrible. I liked this quote:



"But I need all the help I can get. I mean, have you tasted my beer?" he went on to add in a fictional world.

Yeah, I get the impression that he's one of those brewers who's all about "the community" and "the little guy" all that BS instead of trying to actually make good stuff that people want. Never tried it myself though.

 

[sacrelicio]

To me, the "essence" of craft beer is the production of interesting, full flavored, delicious beers, period.

 

[sacrelicio]

Yeah, like Shaun Hill!

He wins the brewer curmudgeon award

 

[JulianB1]

As craft beer starts gushing, its essence gets watered down



He's got an interesting point, since the upper limit of craft beer is basically adjusted to "slightly more than whatever Sam Adams makes" every year. Still, I see the value of keeping the founding members in the club. I'm surprised he's actually complaining publicly -- I guess the honeymoon period is over.

Also, the "Volume Share for Craft Brewers" part of this graphic annoys the **** out of me due to its inflated y-axis.

Everything about this graphic is pretty bad but that's easily the worst offender. I actually cringed the moment I saw it. A simple time series with an appropriate vertical scale wouldn't give the exaggerated effect they are going for though.

 

[RedCoffee]

 

[pjl44]

I also enjoy the whole contract brewery debate. Brewers taking swings at those who do, but then making exceptions for those they're friends with. "No, no...that's a gypsy brewer not a contract brewer." Is this a national issue or are we just lucky to hear the grousing about it in MA?

 

[fosterjm]

Who is this?

 

[RedCoffee]

Who is this?

Google hipster barista.

Every time I hear some brewery/brewer/beer fan whining about how "X isn't real craft beer maaaan" I envision this man.

 

[fosterjm]

Google hipster barista.

Every time I hear some brewery/brewer/beer fan whining about how "X isn't real craft beer maaaan" I envision this man.

Thats some funny ****.
This is a great quote "but it’s ok to have no respect for the specialty coffee world and the people who are committed to it.”

 

[claaark13]

I always find it funny that the owners/brewers/what have you of breweries that brew mediocre at best beers always make the most noxious noise in the brewing world.
Locally, the owner/brewer at Lengthwise makes the most foul noise imaginable. All because he isn't getting the market share he thinks he deserves When in actuality, his beers completely suck and that's why he's not getting the sales he thinks he should be. He is after all "the only local brewery".

Reminds me of politics.

 

[vav1]

Eh, i'd say no, but the landscape has changed. And it will continue to change, it's just the way **** goes.

The market itself is maturing, which is a big part of the way things are now. Customers are becoming more and more educated, and that's going to force breweries to get better. A lot of the new breweries have no idea how to actually sell their beer because they've been so used to it selling out as fast as they can make it. As the shelves get more and more full, the cream will rise to the top.

The "Session IPA" trend is an interesting one...it's proving what myself and many others in the industry have been saying for years, which is people want their beers full flavored but lower in ABV. The whole IPA part of it is, in my opinion, a sales gimmick (IPA's are hot, we'll call it that.) I'm guessing in the next year or two you'll see Pale Ales make a resurgence because people will get sick of hop water and want some actual depth to their drinking experience, same way Imperial Stouts have counterpointed the Imperial IPA phase.

Bomber Fatigue is also a very real thing, and here's why: For one, they're expensive and, perhaps more importantly, most of the time you have no idea if the liquid inside will be any good. With more little breweries coming online, they need to both sell what they make (good or not) to recoup what they've spent. Ergo, a flood of mediocre $9.99 bombers. They're their own worst enemy....they're going to make themselves category killers way better than any of the big breweries could.

You're also going to start seeing price wars with the larger, regional craft breweries. As the Bomber sales decline, the well priced, full flavored 6pk sales go up. To grab that marketshare, you need to price it right. Take careful note of who's priced at what in your local market, and watch who goes on sale and/or forces everyone else down.

 

[Arbitrator]

Bomber Fatigue is also a very real thing, and here's why: For one, they're expensive and, perhaps more importantly, most of the time you have no idea if the liquid inside will be any good. With more little breweries coming online, they need to both sell what they make (good or not) to recoup what they've spent. Ergo, a flood of mediocre $9.99 bombers. They're their own worst enemy....they're going to make themselves category killers way better than any of the big breweries could.

I love that expression.

If you really want to see someone lose their ****, talk to a new brewery about their mediocre $10 bomber and slip in the question, "Do you think your beer justifies that price point?" If you deliver it right, they'll trash-talk so much of the local competition.

 

[MordorMongo]

Yes. You can find me over on talkmead.com

I suggested people start migrating to MeadAdvocate on that other site in early 2011. It got me a one month timeout. Zero ****s were given.

I've been assuming Gene will re-brand this ***** as talkwhiskey since Christmas.

 

[Boilerfood]

Eh, i'd say no, but the landscape has changed. And it will continue to change, it's just the way **** goes.

The market itself is maturing, which is a big part of the way things are now. Customers are becoming more and more educated, and that's going to force breweries to get better. A lot of the new breweries have no idea how to actually sell their beer because they've been so used to it selling out as fast as they can make it. As the shelves get more and more full, the cream will rise to the top.

The "Session IPA" trend is an interesting one...it's proving what myself and many others in the industry have been saying for years, which is people want their beers full flavored but lower in ABV. The whole IPA part of it is, in my opinion, a sales gimmick (IPA's are hot, we'll call it that.) I'm guessing in the next year or two you'll see Pale Ales make a resurgence because people will get sick of hop water and want some actual depth to their drinking experience, same way Imperial Stouts have counterpointed the Imperial IPA phase.

Bomber Fatigue is also a very real thing, and here's why: For one, they're expensive and, perhaps more importantly, most of the time you have no idea if the liquid inside will be any good. With more little breweries coming online, they need to both sell what they make (good or not) to recoup what they've spent. Ergo, a flood of mediocre $9.99 bombers. They're their own worst enemy....they're going to make themselves category killers way better than any of the big breweries could.

You're also going to start seeing price wars with the larger, regional craft breweries. As the Bomber sales decline, the well priced, full flavored 6pk sales go up. To grab that marketshare, you need to price it right. Take careful note of who's priced at what in your local market, and watch who goes on sale and/or forces everyone else down.

I am so glad that vav is over here now. This post could not be more true.

 

[sacrelicio]

Eh, i'd say no, but the landscape has changed. And it will continue to change, it's just the way **** goes.

The market itself is maturing, which is a big part of the way things are now. Customers are becoming more and more educated, and that's going to force breweries to get better. A lot of the new breweries have no idea how to actually sell their beer because they've been so used to it selling out as fast as they can make it. As the shelves get more and more full, the cream will rise to the top.

The "Session IPA" trend is an interesting one...it's proving what myself and many others in the industry have been saying for years, which is people want their beers full flavored but lower in ABV. The whole IPA part of it is, in my opinion, a sales gimmick (IPA's are hot, we'll call it that.) I'm guessing in the next year or two you'll see Pale Ales make a resurgence because people will get sick of hop water and want some actual depth to their drinking experience, same way Imperial Stouts have counterpointed the Imperial IPA phase.

Bomber Fatigue is also a very real thing, and here's why: For one, they're expensive and, perhaps more importantly, most of the time you have no idea if the liquid inside will be any good. With more little breweries coming online, they need to both sell what they make (good or not) to recoup what they've spent. Ergo, a flood of mediocre $9.99 bombers. They're their own worst enemy....they're going to make themselves category killers way better than any of the big breweries could.

You're also going to start seeing price wars with the larger, regional craft breweries. As the Bomber sales decline, the well priced, full flavored 6pk sales go up. To grab that marketshare, you need to price it right. Take careful note of who's priced at what in your local market, and watch who goes on sale and/or forces everyone else down.

I love the economics of craft beer.

 

[vav1]

I love the economics of craft beer.

Me too. I liken it to a sardine bait ball. Thousands of little fishes swimming about, jockeying for position all while moving together for a common goal. Inevitably some will get pushed to the edges of the bait ball and get scooped up by the Tuna or Dolphins or whathaveyou.

Those bigger sharks out in the distance are just waiting for the midsize ones to get fat and tired first before moving in.

this post might not make a lot of sense. I just got back from a bike ride and i'm tired and hungry, and also you gotta watch Blue Planet for context.

whatever.

 

[user 306809]

I love that expression.

If you really want to see someone lose their ****, talk to a new brewery about their mediocre $10 bomber and slip in the question, "Do you think your beer justifies that price point?" If you deliver it right, they'll trash-talk so much of the local competition.

I'd like to point out that nearly every bit of bad blood in the beer world happens with individually packaged product. The brewers who aren't greedy and are content to make (good, sometimes great) money selling their beer on-premises and at regional accounts are rarely pulling their hair out over **** like this. There is competition for tap handles, of course, but it's nothing like the plan-o-gram wars.

Almost all of the fierce competition in the beer world happens on retail shelves. That's where you see $10 dusty local bombers, 2012 Port Hop-15, and last fall's Great Divide Fresh hop turding it up. That's where everybody is trying to push each other off the shelf. It makes me sad.

I think mobile bottling/canning lines might make this even worse of a problem. Where is all that beer going to be sold? ****'s already crowded. Just be content to make good (sometimes great) money selling your beer on premises and at bars. Everyone everywhere doesn't need to drink your beer.

Now some beers naturally lend themselves to being bottled, especially if they're meant to be laid down, but the brewers who are in that niche aren't the ones we're talking about here either.

 

[JulianB1]

No change in my beer buying habits has made me more personally happy than the decision to not buy any more random 9.99-ish price point bombers from breweries with questionable pedigree. Heck, I won't buy them from good breweries unless I am confident the beer is good/worth it.

 

[Boilerfood]

I'd like to point out that nearly every bit of bad blood in the beer world happens with individually packaged product. The brewers who aren't greedy and are content to make (good, sometimes great) money selling their beer on-premises and at regional accounts are rarely pulling their hair out over **** like this. There is competition for tap handles, of course, but it's nothing like the plan-o-gram wars.

Almost all of the fierce competition in the beer world happens on retail shelves. That's where you see $10 dusty local bombers, 2012 Port Hop-15, and last fall's Great Divide Fresh hop turding it up. That's where everybody is trying to push each other off the shelf. It makes me sad.

I think mobile bottling/canning lines might make this even worse of a problem. Where is all that beer going to be sold? ****'s already crowded. Just be content to make good (sometimes great) money selling your beer on premises and at bars. Everyone everywhere doesn't need to drink your beer.

Now some beers naturally lend themselves to being bottled, especially if they're meant to be laid down, but the brewers who are in that niche aren't the ones we're talking about here either.

This is intensified by the amount of shitty beer being introduced to the market now a days. If a brewery is making 4-5 year round beers, there is a really really good chance that 2-4 of them range from "forgettable" to "complete ****" and those breweries still want that shelf space. The "local" craze has set the precedent for lots of bad beer being benchmarks for lots of undereducated buyers. It makes retraining the market all the more difficult.

 

[willseph]

I'd just like to thank all of you for providing relevant thought and experience on a relevant topic. Cheers to you and those who make this forum possible. Now which is the better IPA...

 

[housepants]

I'd like to point out that nearly every bit of bad blood in the beer world happens with individually packaged product. The brewers who aren't greedy and are content to make (good, sometimes great) money selling their beer on-premises and at regional accounts are rarely pulling their hair out over **** like this. There is competition for tap handles, of course, but it's nothing like the plan-o-gram wars.

Almost all of the fierce competition in the beer world happens on retail shelves. That's where you see $10 dusty local bombers, 2012 Port Hop-15, and last fall's Great Divide Fresh hop turding it up. That's where everybody is trying to push each other off the shelf. It makes me sad.

I think mobile bottling/canning lines might make this even worse of a problem. Where is all that beer going to be sold? ****'s already crowded. Just be content to make good (sometimes great) money selling your beer on premises and at bars. Everyone everywhere doesn't need to drink your beer.

Now some beers naturally lend themselves to being bottled, especially if they're meant to be laid down, but the brewers who are in that niche aren't the ones we're talking about here either.

One good instance of mobile canning out here is that Wormtown's Be Hoppy used to be an $8-9 bomber. Mobile canning turned it into a ~$10 4 pack of 16oz cans. I still get your point though.

 

[Arbitrator]

I'd like to point out that nearly every bit of bad blood in the beer world happens with individually packaged product. The brewers who aren't greedy and are content to make (good, sometimes great) money selling their beer on-premises and at regional accounts are rarely pulling their hair out over **** like this. There is competition for tap handles, of course, but it's nothing like the plan-o-gram wars.

I agree, and get that. Shelf space is valuable. That's more what the article spoke to (competition, even resentment, between craft brewers) -- more supply-side -- while vav was talking more about consumers being more selective in what they buy (demand-side).

What I'm curious about is whether we'll see more aggressive competition between breweries now: fighting for shelf space and taps (like you mentioned) and effectively cannibalizing craft sales. I know I've gone into a bar and requested some breweries (Altamont, Alpine, Almanac, etc.) over some that I just don't give a **** about (101 North, Firestone, Dust Bowel, Tap It, etc.). If that happens on a large enough scale, you're going to see that cascade backwards into the sales numbers of those breweries.

 

[user 306809]

I agree, and get that. Shelf space is valuable. That's more what the article spoke to (competition, even resentment, between craft brewers) -- more supply-side -- while vav was talking more about consumers being more selective in what they buy (demand-side).

What I'm curious about is whether we'll see more aggressive competition between breweries now: fighting for shelf space and taps (like you mentioned) and effectively cannibalizing craft sales. I know I've gone into a bar and requested some breweries (Altamont, Alpine, Almanac, etc.) over some that I just don't give a **** about (101 North, Firestone, Dust Bowel, Tap It, etc.). If that happens on a large enough scale, you're going to see that cascade backwards into the sales numbers of those breweries.

What I hope to see is the era of the Spartan brewery tasting room end. Perhaps once they realize they have to fight for accounts, they'll start making their own tasting rooms more of a destination.

 

[abecall98]

What I would like to see is the breweries start releasing more sixers or canning. Those are the most cost effective IMO. I've been against the bomber battle since I have been drinking. Not a big fan of all the damn 8-12 bombers of IPA, RIS, Amber Ales, White Beers with some stupid spices added ect. I have noticed a lot of my friends as well getting over the bomber fad and slowly migrating back towards the sixer or twelve pack style of drinking.

We do however still buy BA Stouts and Sours for the $10-20 price range since no cheaper option exists right now. When somebody releases quality sours or ba stouts in four or six packs locally (bcbs, kbs, plead the 5th etc.), I will be one happy camper.

Lagunitas and Sierra Nevada keep gaining my bucks, Desuchuttes too, and I don't mean their bombers.

Breweries like Knee Deep (most bottles are 4-5 months old on shelves) and Rhustaller (overpriced by a lot for what you get) may be pushed out IMO, but I am only looking at this from my consuming point of view, I have no idea how they with regards to sales.

 

[BTB Mug Club]

What immediately flashed into my mind "Once the next recession in the U.S. is upon us....that Bison guy is screwed"

 

[stupac2]

**** six-packs, buy kegs. Kegs are like $1.00-1.50 a pint. The difference in pricing is similar to the gap between a good sixer/case and a stupid bomber. The kegerator pays for itself very quickly.

 

[abecall98]

**** six-packs, buy kegs. Kegs are like $1.00-1.50 a pint. The difference in pricing is similar to the gap between a good sixer/case and a stupid bomber. The kegerator pays for itself very quickly.

Wish I had a keggerator, or the desire to keep drinking the same stuff for 150 pours.