Converting recipes for efficiency - which method do you use?

[Palefire]

Have kind of a random question that's been bugging me a bit ...

It seems that when converting other people's recipes so that they match the efficiency you generally get with your system, there are two ways to go. I've been pretty much moving back and forth between them, but I've been wondering what other people here tend to do. They are, as I understand it:

1) Keep the amount of speciality grains the same and adjust the amount of base grain up or down to reach the desired OG. With this method, 1lb of crystal would say 1lb of crystal whatever your efficiency is.

2) Use the relative percentages of grain in the recipe and scale them all up or down to reach the desired OG. With this method, 1lb of crystal in the original recipe might end up being 18oz or 15oz, or some less round number, when you make the recipe.

The first is probably a little easier to figure out, but I made an easy little excel spreadsheet that figures out the second. Just wondering what people here tend to do. Come close enough and call it good or try to make the recipe exactly?

Thanks in advance!

 

[bradsul]

I always use method #2. I think it's more accurate to the original recipe. Of course I use promash so it's simply a matter of inputting the original recipe with their efficiency and then changing it to mine. It does all the actual work.

 

[Yooper]

I always use method #2. I think it's more accurate to the original recipe. Of course I use promash so it's simply a matter of inputting the original recipe with their efficiency and then changing it to mine. It does all the actual work.

Me, too. Usually. It depends on the recipe. If it's a bigger beer, and it's just a matter of chopping off a pound of base malt to reach my OG, that's what I do. Or, simply add a pound.

But if it's a recipe with a few specialty grains, and not a high OG, I keep the % the same and adjust it all. I also look at the IBUs and the OG/IBU ratio to keep it about the same.

 

[kanzimonson]

That's a really interesting question to think about. I guess it comes down to what kind of efficiency you get from steeping specialty grains during an extract brew versus your efficiency while mashing. I have to imagine that they're similar. Take this pale ale recipe that assumes 85% efficiency when you steep the crystal:

5# light DME ~ 225 gravity units
.75 crystal 40* ~ 21 gravity units

My mashing gets 75% efficiency, so the recipe would change to this:

8.33# two-row ~ 225 GU
.82# crystal ~ 21 GU

That's not much of a difference by weight, but percentage wise you have a 10% increase in the amount of crystal malt, regardless of the gravity contribution. So really, the question I have is about the flavor of the beer - does it come solely from the number of gravity units provided by each grain, or are there other flavor aspects that the grain contributes?

A more extreme example: An imperial stout extract recipe (85% eff with specialty steep):

8# DME ~ 360 GU
1.5# crystal ~ 43 GU
1# chocolate ~ 24 GU
1# roasted barley ~ 21 GU

Converting to AG (75% eff):

13.33# two-row ~ 360 GU
1.68# crystal ~ 43 GU
1.14# chocoalte ~ 25 GU
1.12# RB ~ 21 GU

Now you're looking at a difference of 3.5# specialty grains versus 3.94#, a 12.5% increase. A half a pound of specialty grains can make a huge difference in any beer. Does this go too far?

Again, you'd have to compare your efficiency between steeping and mashing. What do other people assume for steeping efficiency?

 

[Hammy71]

Never really thought about the how. I let Beersmith do it for me....so I guess that's number 2?

 

[ZackWylde]

Method #2 unless there some grains with really small amounts less then 1% then i use my judgment on rounding up or down

Beersmith lets me get lazy

 

[bigin31]

Use method two. With method one you get a completely different beer. As an example in a 5 gal batch 8 oz of 20 L Crystal has an SRM of 2. Your talking major differences of flavor and color at half a pound difference in specialty grain.

 

[bigin31]

Beersmith lets me get lazy

Amen!!!!!

 

[Hammy71]

So do calculators, microwaves, cars...you name it. But that isn't gonna stop me from utilizing them.....

 

[WaynesWorld]

your question deals with matching efficiency.....In order to match efficiency you are dealing with gravity....not flavor....In order to match efficiency you are talking about minute differences in base grain... not the flavor grains (specialty grains).... IMHO, you are wrong to ratio the specialty grains along with the base grain... the specialty grains give you many UNFERMENTABLES so why dilute them across the board???? They provide the character of the beer... IMHO, this is why so many people screw up their competition brews by adjusting recipes to their kitchen sizes.....you don't reduce flavor, you reduce alcohol (base grains).... just my humble opinion...cheers!!

 

[kanzimonson]

I'm still not convinced either way. Here's an extreme example:

Do you think two beers made with the same grain percentages, same OG, same hopping, yeast, temps, etc but with two drastically different mash efficiencies would taste the same?

50% efficiency
13# two row (93%)
1# crystal (7%)
OG - 1.050

or

85% efficiency
7.65# two row (93%)
.58# crystal (7%)
OG - 1.050

Would these beers taste the same?

 

[Palefire]

I'm still not convinced either way. Here's an extreme example:

Do you think two beers made with the same grain percentages, same OG, same hopping, yeast, temps, etc but with two drastically different mash efficiencies would taste the same?

50% efficiency
13# two row (93%)
1# crystal (7%)
OG - 1.050

or

85% efficiency
7.65# two row (93%)
.58# crystal (7%)
OG - 1.050

Would these beers taste the same?

Really good question. My sense is that the answer is "yes, they'd taste the same" (assuming everything else being equal, of course), but I'd really love to hear what some more experienced brewers think.

Overall, it seems like more people do method #2. Which makes intuitive sense to me - what makes good beer is balance, and maintaining the percentages maintains balance. I just asked in the first place because in the efficiency discussions that happen all the time here, lots of people say things like "the difference between 65% and 75% eff is just a pound or two of 2-row." And part of me says "No! The difference between 65% and 75% is a pound of 2-row, 2oz of crystal, and 2oz of special b (or whatever)."

Thanks for the great answers everyone.

 

[bradsul]

The reason you need to adjust all the malts, is that your total efficiency into the kettle is different than the recipe designer. The specialty grains are in the same mash as the base grains and are therefore affected as well.

If a recipe is designed for 70% efficiency and includes 500g of Crystal 60L, my system, which gets 87% efficiency will only need 435g of Crystal 60L. If I were to use the full 500g from the 70% recipe, my beer would have 17% more Crystal 60L in it than the recipe version. This drastically alters the flavour and colour.

Adjusting for my own efficiency (but keeping the ratios the same) is what allows me to ensure that I'm getting the same amount of Crystal 60L into the kettle that the recipe designer was.

The bottom line is that if you change the ratios between the different grains, you have changed the beer.

Edit: I'm a little so hopefully those numbers are right.

 

[WaynesWorld]

here is one more example.... If you were to brew a Scottish ale 60/-, 70/-, and an 80/-, would you change the ratio of the base malt and the specialty grains to maintain style or just the base grains?.... Hmmmm... most people would change the amounts of base and specialty....that would be WRONG! ... you change the base grains only as the specialty grains are what give the beer its character...Now if you were increasing or reducing the VOLUME of beer then I would agree with changing both types of grains....But as long as the volume will be constant, and if you change both types of grains, IMHO, you will be making three different flavors of beer, instead of the same flavor with just different Starting OG's for each kind.....this is a good thread...will really make people stop and think.... cheers!!

 

[kanzimonson]

lots of people say things like "the difference between 65% and 75% eff is just a pound or two of 2-row." And part of me says "No! The difference between 65% and 75% is a pound of 2-row, 2oz of crystal, and 2oz of special b (or whatever)."

That's a great comment. Since I have my efficiency dialed in, I don't really ever think about adjusting between recipes - I just follow the percentages. But there are probably people out there who do throw in an extra bit of two-row and their beers end up with less specialty character in them than the original recipe.

Back to my scenario above with 50% and 85% efficiency - doesn't something in the back of your mind tell you the beer made with more malt will have a richer, fuller taste to it? And don't we frequently hear that you don't want your efficiency too high because you'll begin extracting less desirable flavors from the grains? Hence this question: besides gravity points, are there unquantifiable flavors that each grain contributes?

We can find an analogy in our hopping. Let's say someone gives you this IPA recipe hopping schedule that uses all Amarillo with 9%AA (IBUs have been quickly calc'd and rouned):

.5oz, 60 min, 20 IBU
.5oz, 30 min, 15 IBU
1.5oz, 15 min, 25 IBU
1oz, 10 min, 15 IBU
1oz, 0 min, 0 IBU
2oz dry hops

Let's say you have Amarillo that's only 7.5%. If it were me making the adjustments, I'd keep the size of all the additions the same except I'd bump the 60 min up to reach the target IBUs (or maybe add some to 60 and 30). This is because it's generally believed 1oz of Amarillo hops provides basically the same amount of hop aromas regardless of the AA%.

In this analogy, hop flavor and aroma is equal to gravity points. More hops : more flav/aroma :: more grain : more GU. The IBUs are analogous to this unquantifiable "grain flavor" I'm asking about. You're forced to make a decision, "To even out efficiencies between these two recipes, I need to add more of X grain. This will get me more gravity, but am I also getting more 'flavor' from the grain?"

How much more of this until one of our heads explodes?

 

[WaynesWorld]

ouch.... my head hurts already.... ... cheers!!