Controlling Wild Yeasts !

[Sballe]

So - it is always a lottery doing a wild ferment; but the reward can be a very complex, semi-sweet cider - that can be hard to replicate with a commercial yeast.

I was wondering … since I have a wild batch from last year that turned out awesome! Can I use a bottle from last years batch, add it to a new batch in primary to get the same wild-yeast profile?

Anyone have experience with this?

 

[kindrox]

I don't know the actual answer, but from my reading, my understanding is that after running out of food, at some point the yeast actually die. And if there are a few that are still alive, you might want to go from a baby starter to a bigger and bigger starter until you have enough to pitch. This is really getting to what I don't have experience with but my reading suggests that dumping a few yeast cells in a large amount of must could cause a bunch of off flavors if the yeast have to massively multiply and run out of say enough nitrogen to do it correctly.

 

[DBhomebrew]

Innoculating a new batch with  viable organisms from a successful previous batch is 100% the way to do it.

Note the emphasis on viable.

 

[Sballe]

Innoculating a new batch with  viable organisms from a successful previous batch is 100% the way to do it.

Note the emphasis on viable.

Could you elaborate on this? I guess you mean that dumping a bottle of last years brew is not the way to go. How would you make sure you have a viable wild yeast colony a year later?

 

[DBhomebrew]

Dumping in a year old bottle that's been sitting on a room temp shelf might work. If that shelf saw a constant 55F all year round I'd have more confidence than if it was stored in an uninsulated garage with a 30-95F annual range.

Pouring off the cider and making a fresh starter with the dregs might work better. Maybe a two step starter would work better. Maybe adding an appropriate amount of the appropriate nutrients to the starter would work better.

Or maybe dumping the whole bottle straight into the new batch will work well enough.

If it were me, I'd try a starter. It would tell me if the stuff was viable before wasting a bunch of expensive ingredients on it. If it's viable, the main ferment will likely be stronger.

 

[Miraculix]

What also plays a big role in wild fermentation is that during fermentation, different organisms take the lead and afterwards die and then others take the lead again. Each of them leaves a certain thing to the overall flavourprofile. This means if you only take what survived up until now, chances are high that you are not capturing the whole development again and will end up with a different falvour profile. Does not mean that it will be bad, it just won't be what you got when you started your previous batch.

 

[mac_1103]

Because of what Miraculix just said, I would not only make a starter but I would taste the starter too.

 

[Sballe]

Sounds like some ideas … but basically,
according to Miraculix post — there really is no way to re-produce last years flavor profile… which I guess is why wild ferments are not used commercially

If doing a starter on last years bottle is just as much a lottery … I might as well just save the trouble and do a new wild ferment … and hope for the best…

 

[DBhomebrew]

Check out bootleg biology if you're really interested in consistent wild ferments.

 

[Miraculix]

Sounds like some ideas … but basically,
according to Miraculix post — there really is no way to re-produce last years flavor profile… which I guess is why wild ferments are not used commercially

If doing a starter on last years bottle is just as much a lottery … I might as well just save the trouble and do a new wild ferment … and hope for the best…

There are many commercial examples of wild fermented bewerages in France (wine and cidre) and in UK (cider) and the netherlands/belgium (beer). I am sure that other countries also have their own traditionally wild fermanted beverages. These examples can be exceptionally nice. Really the best of the best, if you ask me.

They are just not as big as these huge industrial scale wineries/breweries.

 

[Miraculix]

Check out bootleg biology if you're really interested in consistent wild ferments.

Not really wild if you can buy it in a flask. Nice and perhaps funky, but not really wild from my point of view.

 

[DBhomebrew]

Not really wild if you can buy it in a flask. Nice and perhaps funky, but not really wild from my point of view.

https://bootlegbiology.com/diy/?gcl...Xcaw9u69Ot3OAXO6QhIRui7DbQYA-nMBoCcy8QAvD_BwE

 

[Sballe]

There are many commercial examples of wild fermented bewerages in France (wine and cidre) and in UK (cider) and the netherlands/belgium (beer). I am sure that other countries also have their own traditionally wild fermanted beverages. These examples can be exceptionally nice. Really the best of the best, if you ask me.

They are just not as big as these huge industrial scale wineries/breweries.

I wonder how they do it then? Or perhaps there is great variation from batch to batch…

 

[DBhomebrew]

I have to assume commercial entities aren't leaving their ferments up to complete chance. They've got to be pitching known organisms.

 

[gregbathurst]

Wild ferments are very common commercially, as stated by miracula. With wine and cider there is always going to be some variation year to year because the fruit ripens differently each year, so they are not going for consistency, There will be a population of yeasts in the cellar, that is the main source of the yeast that do the job, also on the equipment.

 

[DBhomebrew]

There will be a population of yeasts in the cellar, that is the main source of the yeast that do the job, also on the equipment.

So, not complete chance?

 

[mac_1103]

Wild ferments are very common commercially, as stated by miracula. With wine and cider there is always going to be some variation year to year because the fruit ripens differently each year, so they are not going for consistency, There will be a population of yeasts in the cellar, that is the main source of the yeast that do the job, also on the equipment.

Ripe fruit is covered with yeast. Overripe fruit will often ferment spontaneously. A lot of my dad's old winemaking friends used to start their fermentations outside, so the yeast wasn't coming from their cellars.

 

[Miraculix]

People just let it ferment on it's own since the beginning of brewing and fermenting, also commercially. And of course there is huge variation from vintage to vintage. That is the beauty of it. We do not need to be in control of everything.

 

[Maylar]

there really is no way to re-produce last years flavor profile… which I guess is why wild ferments are not used commercially

They're called "farmhouse" ciders. The yeast isn't cultured, but the apples come from the same source and same scratter and press is used each season.

 

[gregbathurst]

Ripe fruit is covered with yeast. Overripe fruit will often ferment spontaneously. A lot of my dad's old winemaking friends used to start their fermentations outside, so the yeast wasn't coming from their cellars.

As I said, also the equipment, and there are spores in the air as well, anything fermented outside will get spores falling into their cider. If you do wild ferments you will find it gets easier after a few years, when a strong population of yeasts has built up in the area. Some winemakers are very protective of their local wild yeasts, and won't allow any fermented products near their cellar.