Controller build

[harsradish]

Hi guys-

I am no electrician nor do I have much experience with wiring so this may seem like a dangerous question...however I'm looking at buying a diy kit for a panel build and I'm trying to decide between a 30amp vs 50 amp setup. What information do I need in order to make the correct decision?

 

[highland_brewer]

We need more info to advise you.. what type of system are you building? What size batches? Are you planning on doing back to back batches?

I have an electric brewing series on youtube that covers some wiring info find it here
Brian

 

[harsradish]

Thanks Brian-My plan is having a 15 gallon 3 vessel configuration and will probably start with 10 gallon batches until I have the capacity to house more. Not going to be doing back to back batches. I only want the hlt and boil kettle to have heating elements as I'm planning on doing a herms setup.

 

[harsradish]

View attachment ImageUploadedByHome Brew1486483561.473529.jpg

This is the panel I'm considering

 

[highland_brewer]

Thanks Brian-My plan is having a 15 gallon 3 vessel configuration and will probably start with 10 gallon batches until I have the capacity to house more. Not going to be doing back to back batches. I only want the hlt and boil kettle to have heating elements as I'm planning on doing a herms setup.

First 15 gallon kettles might be tough to pull off 10 gallon batches. Coming from someone that had started out with 15 gallon kettles, boil over is a big issue.

Not sure of exact specs on the panel you are showing. What do they list the differences between the 2 to be?
( 30vs50 )

The photo looks to be of the 50amp that allows the hlt and boil kettle to operate simultaneously.

 

[harsradish]

You seem to be correct. It appears the only difference is that the 50 amp can be run simultaneously vs the 30 amp which toggles between the two. Thanks for the advice. I'll def look into larger kettles to avoid boil overs...

 

[crane]

Another huge factor to consider, is what you already have in terms of electrical supply and what it will cost to install any part that you don't have. If you already have a 30 or 50 amp outlet installed somewhere and are planning on using it, then that may sway your decision. Likewise if you need to install the outlet, breaker, and run wire from the main panel, then you should take those costs into consideration. The 6 gauge wire for 50 amps is significantly more expensive than the 10 gauge wire for a 30 amp run.

 

[augiedoggy]

Thanks Brian-My plan is having a 15 gallon 3 vessel configuration and will probably start with 10 gallon batches until I have the capacity to house more. Not going to be doing back to back batches. I only want the hlt and boil kettle to have heating elements as I'm planning on doing a herms setup.

30amps is plenty then. I power a 4500w HLT element at the same time as a 2000w rims with no issues off my 30a circuit. I even power all three of my DC powered pumps and main control panel off this... I also use a 5500w BK element which never runs at the same time as my rims or HLT.

 

[augiedoggy]

First 15 gallon kettles might be tough to pull off 10 gallon batches. Coming from someone that had started out with 15 gallon kettles, boil over is a big issue.

Not sure of exact specs on the panel you are showing. What do they list the differences between the 2 to be?
( 30vs50 )

The photo looks to be of the 50amp that allows the hlt and boil kettle to operate simultaneously.

Not really true with electric at all.. boilovers are easy to avoid because you have instant variable heat control. (you dont have that on an electric stove nor would you with a heated triclad botton on gas.)
I use a 15 gallon kettle and mainly brew 11 gallons into my fermenter but also do 5-6 gallon brews with no issues on my system.
theres no need to ever run the BK and HLT elements at the same time unless doing back to back which he stated hes not planning so..
This was brought up recently in another thread but in a nutshell not all kettles are the same... A taller narrow kettle is better on all accounts having more headspace with the same amount of liquid as a wider kettle which is also less efficient as far as the boil and has more boiloff. a 20 gallon concord for example can have the same headspace in it with 10 gallons as a tall narrow spike or bayou classic 20 gallon kettle has with 15 gallons because the concord is 5" wider and not as tall...

 

[highland_brewer]

Not really true with electric at all.. boilovers are easy to avoid because you have instant variable heat control. (you dont have that on an electric stove nor would you with a heated triclad botton on gas.)
I use a 15 gallon kettle and mainly brew 11 gallons into my fermenter but also do 5-6 gallon brews with no issues on my system.
theres no need to ever run the BK and HLT elements at the same time unless doing back to back which he stated hes not planning so..
This was brought up recently in another thread but in a nutshell not all kettles are the same... A taller narrow kettle is better on all accounts having more headspace with the same amount of liquid as a wider kettle which is also less efficient as far as the boil and has more boiloff. a 20 gallon concord for example can have the same headspace in it with 10 gallons as a tall narrow spike or bayou classic 20 gallon kettle has with 15 gallons because the concord is 5" wider and not as tall...

Yep you are right. My initial kettles were very "wide" and did not have much headspace..

 

[harsradish]

Anybody know if the "complete guide to building your brewery" book has wiring diagrams and wiring components list for building a controller in it? Exploring the possibility of ordering my own parts, I'm just looking for a wiring diagram to help with the build since I don't really know what I'm doing [emoji108]

 

[summerofgeorge]

I used a ton of info from this site and Kal's (not his book though) and built my control panel. I don't know what's in the book but he outlines pretty much every step of the build on his site (parts and wiring). One huge benefit of building your own is that you know how it's wired and should be able to fix any issues, whether that's replacing a failed part or upgrading something. Of course, you need to have some basic electrical knowledge.

As far as 30A vs 50A, you mentioned doing 10G batches until you have the capacity to do more. Even if you're not considering back to back batches, if you end up going with bigger batch sizes, you might want 50A to run 2 elements in one kettle at the same time. Really depends on budget and what you already have available. My thinking on going with 50A was that I can always just run 1 element if I want but I have the option to run both. With 30A, your only option is to run 1. And I don't do it often but I have run both elements at the same time. Sometimes just to heat water for cleaning up.

 

[wilserbrewer]

A taller narrow kettle is better on all accounts having more headspace with the same amount of liquid as a wider kettle which is also less efficient as far as the boil and has more boiloff. a 20 gallon concord for example can have the same headspace in it with 10 gallons as a tall narrow spike or bayou classic 20 gallon kettle has with 15 gallons because the concord is 5" wider and not as tall...

Auggie,

You are comparing YOUR B/C pot and YOUR fat wide Ballington / Concord kettle.

This statement is not true with regard to the current concord kettles and the B/C kettles. The Concord 20 gallon is 18W x 19H, not 5" wider than the B/C

The current concord kettles are slightly wider than the B/C kettles, but nothing like you describe. Perhaps an inch larger diameter, or 10% resulting in about 10% less headspace.

JMO, I like the concord over the B/C, little better kettle for a ltttle less money imo.

 

[crane]

Anybody know if the "complete guide to building your brewery" book has wiring diagrams and wiring components list for building a controller in it? Exploring the possibility of ordering my own parts, I'm just looking for a wiring diagram to help with the build since I don't really know what I'm doing [emoji108]

Technical books are worthless cause you can't ctrl-F and search anything, IMHO. Especially if all the information is already available in one place on the web.

I understand that @Kal does not list a complete wiring diagram on his site, but if you read through all of his info, you get all the pieces broken down by function. I'm not sure if his book has a complete wiring diagram though. Additionally you may not want all the features he has in his panel. Some of it is overkill IMHO. For example I chose not to add voltage or current meters to my panel as I don't see a real need to have this information displayed all the time during every brew day. Additionally the lockout start is a feature I omitted. I'm the only one using my panel, so I can easily make sure all switches are off before turning the panel on.

This thread has a huge list of wiring diagrams drawn up by one of the forum members.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=382286

Also check out ebrewsupply.com. they sell panels, but they list their wiring diagrams on their site.

I would suggest reading through Kal's site and looking at some of the other wiring diagrams out there to familiarize yourself with the individual components and what each of them does.

Even if you end up buying a premade panel you really should be familiar with its internals. I also suggest keeping a spare of each of the major components in case something goes down during a brew. Trust me components don't fail in between brew days, they fail while in use. I've had to do open heart surgery on my panel a couple of times in the middle of a brew day. The first time I didn't have any spare components on hand and it was a real pain to finish brew day. The last time it was no impact to the beer as I swapped out the faulty relay in a matter of minutes.

 

[harsradish]

Thanks for all the info. I actually have been most considering the 30A diy kit from ebrewsupply ($950). I priced out the individual components on kals site and found I would maybe only save about $100. It'll prob be better given my lack of electrical experience to go the kit route so I can at least learn through assembly. My main concern is how easy it would be to upgrade the 30amp to a 50 if I decide down the road to have the ability to run both elements at once.

 

[crane]

Thanks for all the info. I actually have been most considering the 30A diy kit from ebrewsupply ($950). I priced out the individual components on kals site and found I would maybe only save about $100. It'll prob be better given my lack of electrical experience to go the kit route so I can at least learn through assembly. My main concern is how easy it would be to upgrade the 30amp to a 50 if I decide down the road to have the ability to run both elements at once.

Upgrading the panel will require a larger current input plug, and larger gauge wiring up to the point where you breaker it down to 30 amps. It will require installing a second 30amp breaker, and removing the switch that selects between the 2 elements. Shouldn't be a problem if you have enough room.

Usually, the hardest and most costly part would be upgrading your power source unless it is already a 50amp run. Do you already have a 30 or 50 amp outlet you are looking to use, or is that going to be installed for this build?

If you are looking to price things out for cost, you will want to look at multiple sources. You will find that each place may be the best deal for one component, but probably not all. But going with a DIY kit isn't a bad idea if that's what makes sense to you. The added benefit is that you can always go straight to ebrewsupply for help. I also think a DIY kit may be a better option for someone new to all this electrical stuff because you are getting a complete package of everything you need. It's also better than buying a premade panel as you will most likely learn a few things along the way, which will better help you if you decide to upgrade to 50 amps later or you have a component fail on you.

 

[augiedoggy]

Auggie,

You are comparing YOUR B/C pot and YOUR fat wide Ballington / Concord kettle.

This statement is not true with regard to the current concord kettles and the B/C kettles. The Concord 20 gallon is 18W x 19H, not 5" wider than the B/C

The current concord kettles are slightly wider than the B/C kettles, but nothing like you describe. Perhaps an inch larger diameter, or 10% resulting in about 10% less headspace.

JMO, I like the concord over the B/C, little better kettle for a ltttle less money imo.

It all depends wich two kettles you choose to compare.
My 16 gallon bayou and 15 gallon bayou are both 15.5" wide... the 15 gallon concord is actually wider than it is tall...being 17" wide and only 16.6" tall whereas the bayou 15 gallon is 18.5" tall and the 16 gallon which I think is the better choice for both 10 and 5 gallons brews is 19.75 tall... Not a hug difference as you pointed out but enough to result in inches of height difference with the same amount of liquid which can make all the difference if your using elements, an immersion chiller or hop spider and your trying to brew 5 gallons in them. plus you will get more boiloff and require more power for the same strength rolling boil depending on which size you go with.
Since they are comparable in price I just believe the taller narrow kettles are a better buy for electric. The concord is a thicker kettle and I agree its better in that regard... The bayou is supposedly 304 stainless and the concord is not , its made of a cheaper grade of jindal stainless from india that a lot of cheaper stainless kitchen ware is made of. (not that it really matters ) but I'm pointing out thier tradeoffs just the same.

 

[augiedoggy]

Thanks for all the info. I actually have been most considering the 30A diy kit from ebrewsupply ($950). I priced out the individual components on kals site and found I would maybe only save about $100. It'll prob be better given my lack of electrical experience to go the kit route so I can at least learn through assembly. My main concern is how easy it would be to upgrade the 30amp to a 50 if I decide down the road to have the ability to run both elements at once.

I dont know where your searching but theres a lot more savings available than just $100 by shopping around vs buying a kit from a one stop reseller. Its not a huge deal to upgrade the panel later to run both elements. the only real benfit of 50a is being able to brew back to back batches of beer... 50A is something thats always suggested but rarely utilized I think.