LittleRiver
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There is nothing strange about making an objective test to clear up a myriad of subjective opinions.
What is strange is your opposition to that process.
Contrariety is Palmer?
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There is nothing strange about making an objective test to clear up a myriad of subjective opinions.
What is strange is your opposition to that process.
We're discussing two sides of the same coin. What is really the issue here is perception. Perception is the first thing someone with an agenda tries to influence.
I agree. Overall I have the impression that LODO is more an agenda than a technique, which is why I roundly reject it.
I did a duplicate recipe with same ingredients as a non-lodo brewer. Hoppy pale ale. Three of us did triangle test three times each and could pick the odd one out. My lodo beer had superior hop flavour and the non lodo had muted hop presence (all agreed on that).
LODO brewers are no more a homogenous group than non lodo. If there is an agenda it is that those who have brewed lodo notice a significant difference (and consider it an improvement) and why would they not want to help other brewers out. There have been plenty of changes in homebrewing over the years (number of people doing secondary is now next to nil). I assume similar arguments were had during those changes as well.
LODO brewers are no more a homogenous group than non lodo. If there is an agenda it is that those who have brewed lodo notice a significant difference (and consider it an improvement) and why would they not want to help other brewers out. There have been plenty of changes in homebrewing over the years (number of people doing secondary is now next to nil). I assume similar arguments were had during those changes as well.
Dcpcooks
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I don’t have a horse in this race. I can tell you the two of my buddies who brew professionally, one of whom went through the Siebel master classes say hot side aeration is largely a myth. You could argue confirmation bias here if you’d like.
We can all agree that cold side oxidation is a thing. So it may be reasonable to conclude that oxidation begins the moment you crush your grain. Where I have trouble reconciling things is during the grain crush. This seems to me to be the critical control point that is largely ignored. Unless your crushing grain in a vacuum you’ve already oxidized your grains. It’s even more likely in a professional application as most brewers us a grist hydrator that drops crushed and hydrated grains from the ceiling into a mash tun. That has to have some effect on the oxidation of the mash.
As a chef I can confirm the effects of oxidation on food. I can confirm that some foods display the effects of oxidation more quickly than others but I’d have to assume that some level of oxidation occurs in all foods even when we don’t notice it as readily. A dry aged steak will exhibit the effects of oxidation and it’s beneficial to the end product. Avocado, apples and other veggies don’t do so well with oxidation. It’s pretty common in the kitchen to submerge products susceptible to oxidation in water to extend the shelf life for a few hours during service. So boiling will reduce the readily available o2 in solution thus slowing down the process and extending the shelf life of the mash. It’s not a perfect solution but it has some merit.
So after watching these discussions on this topic for a while now I guess I’ve come to a place where I accept the reality that some level of oxidation occurs during the process. In that case I’d have to agree that it’s not always a positive thing from my observations in the kitchen. It could be as simple as reducing exposure risks as best you can along the way. It’s possible that we have come to accept the flavors that may be the result of oxidation are part of the total flavor of beer as we know it. A barleywine or a RIS display signs of oxidation as part of the flavor profile we’ve come to accept. While a delicate IPA wouldn’t stand up well with oxidized flavors. Kinda like picking the dry aged steak instead of the fresh cut steak out of the bag or eating three day old Guacamole vs fresh stuff.
I’m not sure we will form a consensus as a group anytime soon. I’m not sure I’m willing to make the effort just yet to try a Lodo brew day. Perhaps I will need to see a lodo brewer win the ninkasi award.
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Good post. I think you've made a lot of valid points, especially around food in general.
If you need to be convinced based on medal counts, you may be waiting a while. Competition brewing is not really popular in the low oxygen circles because we generally recognize that bottling beer is too hard to do successfully. It can be done, but its a lot of work.
Also competitions only measure a judges preferences and expectations. Home brewing judges have been tasting oxidized beers for years and years and that's largely what the judges expect now.
Also for what its worth, in the large modern breweries where low oxygen processes are just one aspect of many, grain is milled wet after its been soaked in deoxygenated water. This also helps keep husks in tact to improve lautering.
There is a phenomenon in homebrewing as well as other areas such that when a new approach is presented, some in the "old guard" will resist the new approach.
Why is that?
Perhaps there are many reasons, but one that I think obtains is this: when we have invested a certain amount of time, effort, and monetary resources into a process, we don't wish to learn that there may be a better way.
Further, changing to another way likely means another learning curve. Sometimes they are fun, those learning curves, but sometimes they're just...painful.
So we have a conundrum when faced with a new approach. We can embrace it and see if it's truly better, or we can denigrate it so we can continue to feel good about our current approach. Many choose the second, without ever knowing anything significant about the new approach.
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I certainly felt some of this when I decided to try BIAB. I'd learned how to brew good beer using a traditional mash tun (a cooler) and now I learn there's an easier way? Really? It can't be good; if it is, that means I've been doing things the hard way, to little benefit. It's hard to face that reality, sometimes.
I'm facing the same reality with LODO. The arguments make logical sense to me. But there's a learning curve, and it's nothing as easy as BIAB's learning curve was for me. And yet, if there's really something there, I want it. The only way to find out is to do it. That's the only honest way.
@Morrey and I have talked about this. It's more involved, much more. Is it worth it? Morrey has mastered, IMO, the cold side LODO stuff. I'm going to follow his process with my new Spike conical fermenter.
He's waiting for me to assess the Hot Side of LODO--not only in figuring out how to do it, but whether the results are worth the effort. To me, the only result that will validate LODO brewing is to produce a stunning product. And I don't mean just using my own possible confirmation bias, but by what others say. Including Morrey. And my friends. And family.
************
Is LODO the only way? I don't know. Not yet. Workin' on it. But my opinion will be an informed one. You can see others in this thread who are being careful in their evaluation of it. They don't know, they're awaiting evidence. That's a pretty good way to think about the world, if you ask me.
Why is that?
Perhaps there are many reasons, but one that I think obtains is this: when we have invested a certain amount of time, effort, and monetary resources into a process, we don't wish to learn that there may be a better way.
Further, changing to another way likely means another learning curve. Sometimes they are fun, those learning curves, but sometimes they're just...painful.
So we have a conundrum when faced with a new approach. We can embrace it and see if it's truly better, or we can denigrate it so we can continue to feel good about our current approach. Many choose the second, without ever knowing anything significant about the new approach.
*************
I certainly felt some of this when I decided to try BIAB. I'd learned how to brew good beer using a traditional mash tun (a cooler) and now I learn there's an easier way? Really? It can't be good; if it is, that means I've been doing things the hard way, to little benefit. It's hard to face that reality, sometimes.
I'm facing the same reality with LODO. The arguments make logical sense to me. But there's a learning curve, and it's nothing as easy as BIAB's learning curve was for me. And yet, if there's really something there, I want it. The only way to find out is to do it. That's the only honest way.
@Morrey and I have talked about this. It's more involved, much more. Is it worth it? Morrey has mastered, IMO, the cold side LODO stuff. I'm going to follow his process with my new Spike conical fermenter.
He's waiting for me to assess the Hot Side of LODO--not only in figuring out how to do it, but whether the results are worth the effort. To me, the only result that will validate LODO brewing is to produce a stunning product. And I don't mean just using my own possible confirmation bias, but by what others say. Including Morrey. And my friends. And family.
************
Is LODO the only way? I don't know. Not yet. Workin' on it. But my opinion will be an informed one. You can see others in this thread who are being careful in their evaluation of it. They don't know, they're awaiting evidence. That's a pretty good way to think about the world, if you ask me.
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So, employing LODO techniques may be complicated but in the end the results are totally worth the effort; while bottling beer on the other hand is so difficult that nobody has bothered to rack up a pile of medals with their LODO masterpieces, even if only to prove HSA is anything more than quackery. Oh, and also, all BJCP judges are brainwashed to prefer oxidized beers. Gotcha.
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FatDogBrew
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What was this thread about?
What it is,
what it was,
and what it shall be.
what it was,
and what it shall be.
Looks like it got severely derailed. OP abandoned it. I'm closing. If anyone wants to discuss the Palmer thing, start a new thread. The pro and con LODO folks have an entire area of this forum to take their discussion.
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