Contamination from Dry Hops?

[danbme]

It appears that the 2oz of whole hop Magnums have started to grow something. Usually I sink my dry hops in a bag and wonder if the exposed, floating hops gives more of a chance for funky growth. Any takers?

Check out the pic.

Who knows, maybe I made my first sour!

 

[doomy86]

When there is oxygen present mold growth is possible. Normally there is a layer of CO2 above the beer that stops any mold growth.

Do you have an airlock?

It could also be bacteria. Any other pics?

 

[Ungoliant]

Hops alone shouldn't cause any infections. I'll second the motion for some additional photos.

 

[unionrdr]

That whiter stuff's an infection. They say Co2 will stop any infections from starting, but not when you open the fermenter to drop in filled hop socks. Especially allowing them to float. I've soaked them in Starsan, even boiled them & soaked in fresh Starsan, & still gotten infections starting with dry hopping.

 

[TheBigLebrewsk1]

Never got an infection from dry hopping but I use a muslin sock that has been soaked in stars an or bleach water and dried.

 

[C-Rider]

Never had a dry hop infection, I just remove the air lock and pour them in using a funnel made of computer paper.

 

[aprichman]

Never had an infection from dry hopping, although I think the source you get your hops from might have something to do with it.

The reason I say this is when I bought a pound of Azacca hops from Hops Direct I found a big, flat, brown thing in my hops that looked like a flat, dry piece of ****. I have no idea what it really was but I'd say there's at 60% chance a flat, dry piece of **** made it into my hop bag. I think these hops came directly from the farm and obviously quality control wasn't the best. Needless to say I never dry hopped with that bag. I can easily imagine a small piece of the mysterious brown substance being carried into the beer by being inside or on top of the hops.

On the other hand I've gotten leaf hops in smaller bags from Hop Union that seem like they have high quality control. These guys actually take measures to scrub the oxygen from your bag, etc. I would dry hop with something like that any day of the week. Additionally, the pellet hops I buy from Yakima Valley Hops are of great quality. I have never had a problem dry hopping with them.

 

[stpug]

The reason I say this is when I bought a pound of Azacca hops from Hops Direct I found a big, flat, brown thing in my hops that looked like a flat, dry piece of ****. I have no idea what it really was but I'd say there's at 60% chance a flat, dry piece of **** made it into my hop bag. I think these hops came directly from the farm and obviously quality control wasn't the best. Needless to say I never dry hopped with that bag. I can easily imagine a small piece of the mysterious brown substance being carried into the beer by being inside or on top of the hops.

Azacca are not grown directly on Puterbaugh Farms (HopsDirect) as is indicated by the icon. I have no idea on the drying or bundling of the hops they bring into their farm, but there's a possibility they did or didn't do these steps. I'm sure they were (re-)packaged by HopsDirect. Whichever is the case, turds should not count towards the overall weight, IMHO

 

[danbme]

Here are a few more pictures. To answer some questions and comments that have come up- I do use an airlock but did have a hard time shoving the hops into the spout (should have made a paper funnel). It is most likely that when I removed and then replaced the airlock while putting the hops in that contamination occurred.

My plan is to rack the beer out and see if it tastes good. Any tips?

 

[unionrdr]

That's about all you can do for now. See if it tastes good...

 

[stpug]

Any tips?

Don't drink it; dump the batch; don't make the same mistake again. At least, that's what I would do.

Edit: I should clarify why I would dump. It's the furry, fuzzy, hairy, fungus-y look that it has. Crusty and bubbly, I'm okay with; hairy and furry I'm not

 

[Gavin C]

These are super common images on HBT and elsewhere

Another secondary with massive headspace and an infection.

The problem is not the hops it's all the lovely air in the secondary vessel that you racked the beer to. Plenty for the microbes.

Secondaries should have as little headspace as possible to reduce oxygen availability and surface area for the ever-present airborne microbes.

Forget the idea of a CO2 blanket. It doesn't exist and the increased partial pressures of CO2 in the fermentor is gone the instant you rack the beer.

This looks infected for sure. You should post these great pictures in the post your infection thread. Aside from the orientation they are really sharp. Thanks for posting them. Sorry for your loss.

 

[unionrdr]

I agree, definitely post them in the " post your infection" thread for others to learn from. Nice sharp pics!

 

[petemoss]

Newby here, so just curious about something related to this, not trying to hijack the thread. When you are dry hopping, or maybe just using a secondary period, if/since the beer itself can't create enough CO2 in the secondary to fill the headspace, would it be beneficial to use CO2 from your tank to try and flood the secondary before sealing it?

 

[Gavin C]

Newby here, so just curious about something related to this, not trying to hijack the thread. When you are dry hopping, or maybe just using a secondary period, if/since the beer itself can't create enough CO2 in the secondary to fill the headspace, would it be beneficial to use CO2 from your tank to try and flood the secondary before sealing it?

Lots of folks do just that. It still doesnt remove the need for a FULL secondary vessel.

The easiest way to eliminate all theses issues is to just not use secondary vessels. There are very few beers/circumstances that will need one.

This is a perfect example of what not to do if using a secondary.

It's not to say that every beer that gets put in a secondary will have problems. The other beer in the underfilled secondary vessel next to the infected one in the OP's pics looks fine (aside from having too much headspace with lots of oxygen available for microbes or to oxidize the beer)

 

[stpug]

...And make sure ALL of those hops get wet as the isomerized alpha acids and alcohol will help sanitize those hops for you. The pictures sure make it look like the topmost hops aren't even wet - still! If you're ever concerned about how to make sure the hops are well "wetted", then use pellet hops and remove this possibility.

 

[Ungoliant]

If you're ever concerned about how to make sure the hops are well "wetted", then use pellet hops and remove this possibility.

How do you feel about sanitizing a marble, throwing it and whole hops in a muslin bag (either boiled or soaked in sanitizer) and tossing that in?

The easiest way to eliminate all theses issues is to just not use secondary vessels. There are very few beers/circumstances that will need one.

When would you use a secondary? I've added adjuncts like hops, coffee, and cacao nibs in to primary vessels with no issues...Mostly because I'm too lazy but also because I don't have any smaller secondaries laying around.

 

[Gavin C]

When would you use a secondary? .

I wouldn't

Edit: Maybe if I started doing fruit beers there would be a case for racking to a second vessel. I currently have no plans to make any fruit beers.

 

[stpug]

How do you feel about sanitizing a marble, throwing it and whole hops in a muslin bag (either boiled or soaked in sanitizer) and tossing that in?

I used to do that but used those flattened glass "gems" from the craft store; marbles would work just the same. I've since switched to 3/4" SS balls/bearings/marbles. All of this takes place in a keg from which I serve the beer.

Before kegs, when I didn't want to use a bag then I was okay with gently swirling the carboy around to make sure all of the hops get well drenched (repeat as needed). It worked well enough and didn't cause any oxidation (that I could tell ).

 

[joshesmusica]

How do you feel about sanitizing a marble, throwing it and whole hops in a muslin bag (either boiled or soaked in sanitizer) and tossing that in?



When would you use a secondary? I've added adjuncts like hops, coffee, and cacao nibs in to primary vessels with no issues...Mostly because I'm too lazy but also because I don't have any smaller secondaries laying around.

Here are some reasons that I will use a secondary vessel:
1) I want to save the yeast.
2) I want to bottle some of the beer before I dry hop it. (I usually do 25L batches, so I'll rack to my 22L PET carboy, and bottle the other 2-2.5L)
3) I've done a 22L batch, and need the primary for a 25L batch.

Otherwise, anything else I throw at the beer post-fermentation goes directly into the primary. I just recently bottled my christmas porter and it sat in the primary for 5 1/2 weeks. Tasted great before bottling, can't wait to pop them open in a couple of months. I didn't need to save the yeast, so I just poured in the cacao nibs, cinnamon sticks, and cloves that were all soaked in rum for about 1 week, then sat in the fermenter for about 3 weeks.

When I do use a secondary, I try to get the least amount of headspace possible. But I also will make it a kind of true secondary fermentation by throwing some more fermentables in there. This has the added benefit of getting some more yeast to flocculate out, and should theoretically purge the headspace. And I'm not saving this yeast, so I don't have to worry about the last thing they consumed being simple sugars (because I've read that doing this, like humans, will make them lazy and sluggish).

 

[dunbruha]

Lots of folks do just that [add CO2 after racking to the secondary]. It still doesnt remove the need for a FULL secondary vessel.

Why? What else does a FULL secondary provide? I have only room for one FV in my FC, so after 10 days (or so) I rack to a CO2-purged keg and let the fermentation finish and add dry hops. (No fruit beer for me, either.) I am usually putting 3 gal of beer into a 5-gal keg, with the headspace all CO2. Why would this be bad?

 

[Gavin C]

Why? What else does a FULL secondary provide? I have only room for one FV in my FC, so after 10 days (or so) I rack to a CO2-purged keg and let the fermentation finish and add dry hops. (No fruit beer for me, either.) I am usually putting 3 gal of beer into a 5-gal keg, with the headspace all CO2. Why would this be bad?

You've got a pressurized and purged keg Totally different scenario. It would not be bad. Not sure how you can equate the two.

One is put beer in carboy where there is air and any added CO2 is not retained and will dissipate rapidly during the racking.

One is put beer in a closed system where you can purge the air and massively reduce the partial pressures of O2 and keep it that way while you force carbonate the beer.

A secondary needs to be full to the neck to minimize this O2 issue. This is nothing new. No ground breaking change in technique. This is the way it has always been advised if you want to correctly use a second vessel prior to packaging.

Why do you think beer/wine bottles are designed with a long neck and filled all the way into the neck? A secondary is nothing more than a big beer bottle. Treat them as such if you choose to use them, and want to minimize the risks the OP has unluckily enough experienced..

I choose not to use them as I see no compelling reason to. My beers are usually legged at 2 weeks. Ales, lagers, big and small, once FG is reached, into the keg they go.

 

[danbme]

I thought that you want to rack off the primary to get rid of any sediment that could change the flavor of your beer? If you are not kegging, do you just let it go in the primary until you pitch some sugar and bottle it?

Typically I go with a bucket for the primary for 3-5 days then rack to secondary for a couple weeks then bottle....for most ales.

I'll put the pics in that post shortly. Should be bottling this weekend.

 

[Gavin C]

I thought that you want to rack off the primary to get rid of any sediment that could change the flavor of your beer?

No


If you are not kegging, do you just let it go in the primary until you pitch some sugar and bottle it?

Kegging or bottling. All in the primary till you hit FG, beer clears, any dry hopping done, rack to keg or bottling bucket.

Typically I go with a bucket for the primary for 3-5 days then rack to secondary for a couple weeks then bottle....for most ales.

This is not a good idea at all for a variety of reasons. 3-5 days!!

I'll put the pics in that post shortly. Should be bottling this weekend.

There are a bazillion threads on secondary yes/no

Brulosopher did a good little exBeeriment on this

Just don't use secondary unless you can find a good reason to convince yourself to from your own reading on the topic.

If you do decide to use one, learn how to properly use one. The wine forum is good for this where repeated rackings to secondary vessels is the norm and entirely justified. The same principals of a filled vessel apply. You should be able to see what a filled secondary should look like.

Don't transfer your beer at 3-5 days. No one would advocate for that time frame. Let it ferment to FG in the primary vessel. That's when the decision to rack to secondary or package the beer should be made.

My first few beers I blindly followed the primary to secondary to packaging mantra. Once you learn more about the different ways to make beer you can better make an informed decision as to how you want to brew your beer.

Best of luck with your beers.

 

[dunbruha]

One is put beer in carboy where there is air and any added CO2 is not retained and will dissipate rapidly during the racking

I'm not meaning to be argumentative, and I have no stake in this, but why do you say this? It doesn't have to be this way. Why not flush the carboy with CO2, carefully rack from primary, then flush the headspace with CO2 before putting on the ferm lock? That's what I thought petemoss was saying in his post. Maybe I mis-read it.

I totally agree that transfer to a secondary vessel is not required, and it is an extra chance of potential oxidation/contamination, but if you need the space in the FC, then a secondary makes sense, and can be done without damaging the brew (as long as you have a tank of CO2 around...). As you say: "Once you learn more about the different ways to make beer you can better make an informed decision as to how you want to brew your beer."

And, so as to not derail the thread, you can add your dryhops, then flush the headspace with CO2 to prevent infection.

 

[Gavin C]

relevant stuff.

Purging vessels of air with Co2 and adding CO2 to vessels after racking is certainly, at least in theory, going to minimize the oxidative and infective risk in any racking process, be it to a keg or secondary vessel.

It just seems that the qualities of a secondary vessel, if one decides to use one, have not been stressed by beer makers, homebrew shops, online vendors or kit instructions. I for one didn't appreciate the rationale to a smaller carboy when i started brewing. Now that 5 gallon carboy I bought at the very start gets used rarely (Apfelwein).

Wine makers are at great pains to stress the importance of filling secondaries, topping them up with must or similar wine if needs be. The same emphasis does not seem commonplace in beer threads. Solutions like CO2 additions, while helpful, are IMO largely a crutch to offset the negative effects of using a secondary vessel in the manner you describe.

Am I suggesting that all beers racked to a secondary with a large headspace will become infected or the beer noticeably oxidized. No. What I am describing is simply tried and true best practice for secondary usage, i.e. elimination of headspace.

BTW. I don't read your post as argumentative in the slightest. I think your position is very reasonable and I can understand your perspective. I do not however agree with it. Always fun to discuss these things with seemingly reasonable folks like yourself mate. Hope I'm not coming across as more of an ass than I am.

Even with an airlock placed. A large headspace with a higher partial pressure of CO2 will return to atmospheric CO2 partial pressure in time. NO bung/airlock is airtight. Gasses will diffuse in and out albeit very slowly.

 

[dunbruha]

BTW. I don't read your post as argumentative in the slightest. I think your position is very reasonable and I can understand your perspective. I do not however agree with it. Always fun to discuss these things with seemingly reasonable folks like yourself mate. Hope I'm not coming across as more of an ass than I am.

No worries. I was just concerned that I might be doing something wrong. But I don't use carboys--I ferment in a 1/4 bbl Sanke and pressure-transfer to Sanke sixtels for dry-hopping and conditioning before cold-crashing. So hopefully I get minimal oxidation.

It's always fun to learn new stuff!

 

[Gavin C]

No worries. I was just concerned that I might be doing something wrong. But I don't use carboys--I ferment in a 1/4 bbl Sanke and pressure-transfer to Sanke sixtels for dry-hopping and conditioning before cold-crashing. So hopefully I get minimal oxidation.

It's always fun to learn new stuff!

Cool. Can't imagine oxygenation could play a role with your pressurized transfer to a CO2 filled keg. My process is more basic, less sophisticated .

Ferment to FG in carboy, crash, fine, rack to Co2 filled serving keg. Usually at 2 weeks +/- a day or two. I've recently started racking via the liquid out dip tube rather than with the lid off, again with a view to minimizing O2 exposure.

Kegged beer is force-carbonated and cold conditioned/lagered simultaneously over the next weeks till ready

 

[dunbruha]

Ferment to FG in carboy, crash, fine, rack to Co2 filled serving keg. Usually at 2 weeks +/- a day or two. I've recently started racking via the liquid out dip tube rather than with the lid off, again with a view to minimizing O2 exposure.

Your way is good too. That is the exact same setup I used before I bought my Sanke FV.

 

[danbme]

For those following this thread as it evolves (which has been very cool); I have an update. I went down to check on this contaminated carboy and noticed that the airlock was up and actually bubbled a small about while I was staring at it. This is somewhat confusing as that would indicate carbon dioxide which should have killed the mold, right?

Anywho, I could not help myself at that point so I pulled a glass out to see if it was poison. Surprisingly it did not taste like FUNK. I was so nervous at first then excited after that I never got a gravity reading but will surely snag one when I rack then bottle later this week. Here is a pick of the glass I pulled out from under the moldy hop mess.

Next update should come in a few weeks when I crack the first bottles and see how a few feel in my gut.