Confessions...My beer doesnt taste good

[nobadays]

.... more then likely he is sensitive to extract twang.....

This.... All the other suggestions - Water - Fermentation control - yeast - all right on the money but I read through this whole thread and only saw this mentioned once.

Some people, myself included can just taste that "extract twang" ...and I'm not saying you can't make good beer using extract, I have and did for years - like since the early 90s, but it always had a taste in there that I didn't like. Sometimes very faint (fresh LME??) Other people raved about my beer and came back for more...but to me something was off. It was good, but not commercial beer good.

When I finally went AG - BIAB - I could not believe the difference and I would have argued there would be little difference. Since going AG I haven't had a bad beer...well other than one or two that my choices of hops just didn't quite play well with each other, but the beer was good!

My 2 cents!

Cheers! Don

 

[ericbw]

I think the path of extract > extract w/ steeping > all grain also follows the path of novice > intermediate > competent. And I think doing all grain forces you to pay more attention to everything. So naturally, early extract batches aren't as good as later grain batches.

But there are things like adding the extract later in the boil, using fresh ingredients, etc. that also help.

 

[foam_top]

Some people, myself included can just taste that "extract twang"

Is it extract twang or just LME? I remember I stopped using LME (unless it was forced on me in a kit) and I never had that twang using only DME. I also do BIAB now but I noticed Palmer's extract kits don't come with LME, makes me think he considers it inferior too.

 

[ericbw]

Is it extract twang or just LME? I remember I stopped using LME (unless it was forced on me in a kit) and I never had that twang using only DME. I also do BIAB now but I noticed Palmer's extract kits don't come with LME, makes me think he considers it inferior too.

I think there is some truth to that idea.

 

[metaltim]

I'll share my experience which may enlighten you.

I started brewing on basic equipment - coleman cooler mash tun, immersion chiller, pot on a burner, and carboy fermenting in bath tub using frozen milk jugs to control temp. The beer wast just ok.

Then I bought a chest freezer and controller for fermentation. The beer definitely got better, but still just 'good'.

Meanwhile, my uncle has had a top notch system and has won a few dozen medals for his beers over the last decade+. Recently, he gave all his equipment to me because they retired and were downsizing.

Now I have a HERMS system, thermoelectrically cooled conical, oxygenator, counterflow chiller, stir plate, filter, etc, and I've made a few batches, and the beer is outstanding.

So it wasn't me, it was my equipment/methods. Not to say you can't make good beer on cheap equipment, but there are certain steps in the process that really boost the quality of beer. Healthy yeast, temperature control (mash and fermentation, as well as cooling quickly), and oxygenated wort I think all make a very big difference between good beer and outstanding beer, and many homebrewers starting out simply don't focus on those aspects, because none of them are required to make beer.

 

[Sansnom]

Some people, myself included can just taste that "extract twang" ...and I'm not saying you can't make good beer using extract, I have and did for years - like since the early 90s, but it always had a taste in there that I didn't like. Sometimes very faint (fresh LME??) Other people raved about my beer and came back for more...but to me something was off. It was good, but not commercial beer good.

Your experience pretty much mirrors mine. I tried way to hard to get rid of that off flavour, I just about gave up on brewing because of it. I'm still kicking myself for not getting into all grain sooner.

 

[mboardman]

Boom!!
KC Biermeisters !

I've been reading a lot of good advice in this thread, but I gotta say, if it were me , I'd adopt 1 or two of the suggestions for a batch and evaluate versus changing your entire brewing world upside down.

My advise, You can make award winning beer with partial mash kits, I'd prolly work the water angle first. (and ditch the bleach)

I will definitely go to a meeting of KCB soon! It would be great to meet up with some people face to face, and a get a sense of how different people do this....

 

[mboardman]

OP still hasn't explained how he uses the water in his sink with the Starsan mixed in... if it's used for strike water, for example.

Im straining to understand how you thought I used strike water with starsan mixed in?

 

[mboardman]

Is it extract twang or just LME? I remember I stopped using LME (unless it was forced on me in a kit) and I never had that twang using only DME. I also do BIAB now but I noticed Palmer's extract kits don't come with LME, makes me think he considers it inferior too.

Yeah, Im going to stop using LME also. Had no idea there were points against LME.

 

[mboardman]

Just thought of another one... A big one... Yeast!

Liquid or dry? Are you making a starter? How old/viable is the yeast (potentially an issue with kits)? What temp is the wort when you pitch?

If you're pitching a sub-optimal quantity of aged yeast into a too-hot wort, you're asking a lot of them to have them turn it into delicious beer.

Seems like I recently read an article about how its not really the yeast that determines a specific taste in beer, most especially belgian beers....but Im just citing example, not trying to start a debate.

But, to answer, Im using whatever yeast came with the kits. Its usually dry yeast and I have played with different methods - sometimes I rehydrate the packet of Sahale US-05 etc with a cup or warm tap water, 30 mins prior to pitching. Sometimes, early on, I simply opened the packet and sprinkled it in. Books and kits say this is acceptable...

If its liquid yeast, I smack the packet the day of brewing, per instructions. And its room temp before pitching.

I guess Im starting to understand that kits suck. Which was my first instinct but I hate to be that athlete that always blames his equipment, and not his ability.

 

[mboardman]

OK, I guess I am simply brewing extract kits with partial grains. I thought that was the same thing as BIAB.

The giant bag of grains they send barely fits in the biggest mesh strainer I could buy when it comes time to strain them, and I guess I assumed that meant I was doing biab. The kits usually do come with a 1-2 lb bag of DME as well. I assumed extract meant the syrup LME stuff.

Thanks for the clarification fellas. Much appreciated, all the advice.

Im trying to respond to everyone, but its tough. Im still a beginner, despite having done extract kits for 4-5 years, albeit off and on due to work travels.

The things from all your posts that seem to register most with me, or apply most to my complaints and situation, are:

1. Water quality must be addressed - I bought camden tablets as well as a few other additives
2. Begin using that damn aerator I bought two years ago...
3. no more bleach
4. Begin AG brewing in true BIAB form

 

[mboardman]

I'll share my experience which may enlighten you.

I started brewing on basic equipment - coleman cooler mash tun, immersion chiller, pot on a burner, and carboy fermenting in bath tub using frozen milk jugs to control temp. The beer wast just ok.

Then I bought a chest freezer and controller for fermentation. The beer definitely got better, but still just 'good'.

Meanwhile, my uncle has had a top notch system and has won a few dozen medals for his beers over the last decade+. Recently, he gave all his equipment to me because they retired and were downsizing.

Now I have a HERMS system, thermoelectrically cooled conical, oxygenator, counterflow chiller, stir plate, filter, etc, and I've made a few batches, and the beer is outstanding.

So it wasn't me, it was my equipment/methods. Not to say you can't make good beer on cheap equipment, but there are certain steps in the process that really boost the quality of beer. Healthy yeast, temperature control (mash and fermentation, as well as cooling quickly), and oxygenated wort I think all make a very big difference between good beer and outstanding beer, and many homebrewers starting out simply don't focus on those aspects, because none of them are required to make beer.

Your post really registered with me, and I plan to go AG today. Well, begin acquiring the equipment anyway

 

[z-bob]

Also, there's nothing magic about 5 gallon batches. My favorite size is 4 gallons. With all-grain and buying ingredients it bulk, it's easy to tailor your recipes to the size equipment you have.

You really might not have much to buy other than some 5 gallon paint strainer bags from the hardware store. (finer-mesh bags like the ones from Wilser work better and are more durable, but the paint bags work just fine to start with)

 

[McKnuckle]

Im straining to understand how you thought I used strike water with starsan mixed in?

From Post #42:

"On brew day I usually fill one sink with 5-8 gals of tap water and 1-2 oz of starsan."

 

[betarhoalphadelta]

But, to answer, Im using whatever yeast came with the kits. Its usually dry yeast and I have played with different methods - sometimes I rehydrate the packet of Sahale US-05 etc with a cup or warm tap water, 30 mins prior to pitching. Sometimes, early on, I simply opened the packet and sprinkled it in. Books and kits say this is acceptable...

If its liquid yeast, I smack the packet the day of brewing, per instructions. And its room temp before pitching.

I guess Im starting to understand that kits suck. Which was my first instinct but I hate to be that athlete that always blames his equipment, and not his ability.

With yeast, how it is stored matters quite a bit. If you have fresh yeast in a smack pack, you're still probably underpitching. If you have fresh 11 g satchel of US-05 or something like that, you're probably pitching an adequate amount of yeast.

If that yeast hasn't been stored in ideal conditions, though, you could be massively underpitching. And with a kit, you REALLY don't have a lot of knowledge of how it was stored--or for how long.

I'd say you might want to try making a starter next time. You don't have to go crazy with a big erlenmeyer flask, stir plate, etc for your first one. You can do this with standard kitchen equipment you already have. Just collect ~1L of water with ~1 cup DME into a small pot, lightly boil it for 10 minutes, let it chill, dump in the yeast. Cover it with [sanitized] aluminum foil and let it sit on the counter overnight. The next day, it'll be good to pitch.

 

[mboardman]

From Post #42:

"On brew day I usually fill one sink with 5-8 gals of tap water and 1-2 oz of starsan."

Cmon now, I dont brew in a sink. If I did then THAT would be why my beers dont taste good !

Thats a sink full of sanitizer for all the stuff and tools I'll be using. Sink. Not kettle.

 

[mboardman]

With yeast, how it is stored matters quite a bit. If you have fresh yeast in a smack pack, you're still probably underpitching. If you have fresh 11 g satchel of US-05 or something like that, you're probably pitching an adequate amount of yeast.

If that yeast hasn't been stored in ideal conditions, though, you could be massively underpitching. And with a kit, you REALLY don't have a lot of knowledge of how it was stored--or for how long.

I'd say you might want to try making a starter next time. You don't have to go crazy with a big erlenmeyer flask, stir plate, etc for your first one. You can do this with standard kitchen equipment you already have. Just collect ~1L of water with ~1 cup DME into a small pot, lightly boil it for 10 minutes, let it chill, dump in the yeast. Cover it with [sanitized] aluminum foil and let it sit on the counter overnight. The next day, it'll be good to pitch.

So, when I hear about under-attenuation, it might be due to underpitching with older yeast? I guess I assumed the dry yeast was good for years. I dont keep my extra dry yeast packets in the fridge - should I?

I do actually use a flask and rehydrate the dry stuff. I dont have any DME laying around so its just 3-4 cups of warm water 90F or so and the yeast. I swirl it thoughout my boil and by the time Im ready to pitch, its ready. Guess I should grab some DME to keep on hand but hate to change the taste of the recipe Im adding it to....

 

[ericbw]

So, when I hear about under-attenuation, it might be due to underpitching with older yeast? I guess I assumed the dry yeast was good for years. I dont keep my extra dry yeast packets in the fridge - should I?



I do actually use a flask and rehydrate the dry stuff. I dont have any DME laying around so its just 3-4 cups of warm water 90F or so and the yeast. I swirl it thoughout my boil and by the time Im ready to pitch, its ready. Guess I should grab some DME to keep on hand but hate to change the taste of the recipe Im adding it to....

Unless it's a really small batch, it won't matter. Use light or Pilsen DME.

 

[z-bob]

Unless it's a really small batch, it won't matter. Use light or Pilsen DME.

For that quick a starter, basically just proofing the yeast, why not use sugar?

 

[betarhoalphadelta]

So, when I hear about under-attenuation, it might be due to underpitching with older yeast? I guess I assumed the dry yeast was good for years. I dont keep my extra dry yeast packets in the fridge - should I?

Yes. When you go to your homebrew store, they keep them in the fridge for that reason. When you get them home, get them into the fridge. That's the best way to maintain viability.

 

[betarhoalphadelta]

I do actually use a flask and rehydrate the dry stuff. I dont have any DME laying around so its just 3-4 cups of warm water 90F or so and the yeast. I swirl it thoughout my boil and by the time Im ready to pitch, its ready. Guess I should grab some DME to keep on hand but hate to change the taste of the recipe Im adding it to....

Unless it's a really small batch, it won't matter. Use light or Pilsen DME.

For that quick a starter, basically just proofing the yeast, why not use sugar?

BTW I wouldn't recommend just proofing the yeast during the boil. My specific recommendation was to do this 1 day prior. And from what I understand [which is more "conventional wisdom" than science] it is bad practice to make an actual starter with sugar.

If you're making a starter, using pilsner DME or extra light DME won't actually change the taste of the batch, which is what I think ericbw was replying to. But I think both myself and ericbw were suggesting making an actual starter, not just proofing the yeast. And for an actual starter, DME would be preferred.