Conditioning grain == awesome.

[Randar]

That "consensus" simply relates to setting the grain/filter bed, as I noted above. You requiring a little more Vorlauf volume (recirc time) to set the grain bed is not directly indicative of any "filter" mechanism at all.

Once you have the filter mechanism "set" then the filtration is more effective. THAT is the point.

 

[wildwest450]

That "consensus" simply relates to setting the grain/filter bed, as I noted above. You requiring a little more Vorlauf volume (recirc time) to set the grain bed is not directly indicative of any "filter" mechanism at all.

Once you have the filter mechanism "set" then the filtration is more effective. THAT is the point.

Well stated.


_

 

[nickharbour]

That "consensus" simply relates to setting the grain/filter bed, as I noted above. You requiring a little more Vorlauf volume (recirc time) to set the grain bed is not directly indicative of any "filter" mechanism at all.

Once you have the filter mechanism "set" then the filtration is more effective. THAT is the point.

so this whole time I've been talking about vorlauf taking longer and you guys were bashing me, thats like, over?

I dont know how you are defining filter but I define it as to allow certain things to pass through while keeping other things out. vorlauf, getting clear wort, filterting out all the little pieces of junk. vorlauf takes longer = less effective filtering.

 

[Randar]

so this whole time I've been talking about vorlauf taking longer and you guys were bashing me, thats like, over?

As long as you're going to keep confusing Vorlaufing with filtering, no, it's not over. And don't confuse "bashing" with disproving your logic/argument.

I dont know how you are defining filter but I define it as to allow certain things to pass through while keeping other things out. vorlauf, getting clear wort, filterting out all the little pieces of junk. vorlauf takes longer = less effective filtering.

Seriously? You can't differentiate the need to remove the small particles from between the large hulls (TO SET THE GRAIN/FILTER BED) initially from the filtration process during the entire rest of the lauter? Really?

 

[nickharbour]

Come watch me re-circ my mash at over a gallon per minute. Explain that.


_

So here he's not talking about vorlauf? haha, nice try though.

 

[Randar]

So here he's not talking about vorlauf? haha, nice try though.

No, he's talking about a RIMS with constant recirculation.

Would you like to keep digging that hole or you going to admit you were wrong?

 

[nickharbour]

No, he's talking about a RIMS with constant recirculation.

Would you like to keep digging that hole or you going to admit you were wrong?

thats semantics. what we have here is a split definition of filtration and this still clearly falls in line with what I was describing. The flow of liquid through conditioned grain is better and it filters less effectively. By the same token sand filters great but flows poorly while marbles flow well put filter poorly.

 

[wildwest450]

If you think there's a big difference as it relates to this discussion between vorlaufing and recirculation, quit while you're behind.


_

 

[Randar]

thats semantics. what we have here is a split definition of filtration and this still clearly falls in line with what I was describing. The flow of liquid through conditioned grain is better and it filters less effectively. By the same token sand filters great but flows poorly while marbles flow well put filter poorly.

It's not semantics when your only inclusion for defining filtering is during the Vorlauf period, in which case the only purpose is truly to remove "loose" particles and to place the filterbed into action.

Comparison to sand and marbles is a complete non sequitur.

It is clear, however, that you are unable to discuss outside the narrow scope to which you've convinced yourself this applies. So have fun talking in circles... I'm out.

 

[milldoggy]

Back to the topic at hand, I have not tried conditioning yet, but I am interested in trying it. What do you mix you grains in. I guess a hd homer bucket will work. How fine should the mist be? Any other tips and tricks?

 

[nickharbour]

If you think there's a big difference as it relates to this discussion between vorlaufing and recirculation, quit while you're behind.


_

No, I am saying they are the same. He was implying a difference by correcting me by saying that you were talking about rims. I pointed out that its the same principle.

 

[wildwest450]

I'm out, mill how you want, your brewing genius is undeniable.


_

 

[nickharbour]

Back to the topic at hand, I have not tried conditioning yet, but I am interested in trying it. What do you mix you grains in. I guess a hd homer bucket will work. How fine should the mist be? Any other tips and tricks?

I initially got 5 gallon bucket for it but DO NOT DO THIS. instead get a shallow wide container, like a rectangular storage bin. much easier to mix with your hand.

I started out with a really fine mist but eventually found that quite a lot of liquid was getting stuck to the side walls of my bin so I loosened it up a bit. So I would say about halfway between a mist and a stream works well.

 

[Randar]

Back to the topic at hand, I have not tried conditioning yet, but I am interested in trying it. What do you mix you grains in. I guess a hd homer bucket will work. How fine should the mist be? Any other tips and tricks?

I like to condition the night before in a spare cooler and button it all up overnight... allows the water to more evenly distribute and be absorbed into the hulls.

 

[smakudwn]

I condition mine overnight also, but I just use a Homer Bucket.

 

[milldoggy]

So a wide bin and somewhere between a mist and spray. I like the idea of conditioning overnight. With a wide rubbermaid like bin, you could even snap a lid on to kept the critters out. Thanks for the tips.

 

[Randar]

So a wide bin and somewhere between a mist and spray. I like the idea of conditioning overnight. With a wide rubbermaid like bin, you could even snap a lid on to kept the critters out. Thanks for the tips.

Yep. And I find I can go beyond Kai's original 3 oz per 11 pound recommendation because the water has a little more time to distribute, so you don't get "wet spots". By morning, the grain feels fluffier before milling but you should not notice any obvious wetness. I also set my spray bottle to mist, but with letting it rest overnight, it probably makes very little difference as long as you are mixing the grain by hand as you spray to evenly distribute the water.

 

[williamnave]

I think, as you noted, you are in the minority with being able to buy in bulk but crush at the LHBS and having a tight enough setting to get 8-+ efficiency. A couple online vendors have pretty reliable crushes, but I don't consider it worth the risk of going from 80-85% efficiency to 65% and not being able to have any recourse once the grain is sitting in my MT. Also, you have a very convenient LHBS to your residence as well I take it!

But, cheers on the nice situation you have!

And cheers to you sir!

So, I know I'm a broken record here, but what other benefits has anyone experienced? Once the whole vorlauf vs marbles debate is over, I'd love to hear what people have experienced with conditioning in relation to flavor, efficiency, etc. How about color? Tannin extraction? Did anyone here have an issue that they cleared up by moving to conditioning their malt?

As a total *Hijack* I would encourage all of you looking for better efficiency to get into water chemistry. The mill at my LHBS never got me much over 72-75% until I dove into that. It is a cheap, easy way to boost your efficiency.

 

[Randar]

So, I know I'm a broken record here, but what other benefits has anyone experienced? Once the whole vorlauf vs marbles debate is over, I'd love to hear what people have experienced with conditioning in relation to flavor, efficiency, etc. How about color? Tannin extraction? Did anyone here have an issue that they cleared up by moving to conditioning their malt?

Reduction in grainbed compaction and better filtering during lauter/sparge. Should not really affect flavor and tannin extraction is more a function of pH, so it also should not really impact it. Color is again pH (during the boil it affects Maillard reactions) and should not be impacted by conditioning.

In terms of efficiency, I don't think it will help you that much if you have a good process/technique to begin with. Also, if you do an iodine test for conversion, you may find your conversion is complete more quickly as the endosperm are more pulverized and hence accessible (if you tighten your gap settings).

So, in summary:
- Better and more even filtration with less chances of channeling
- less chance of stuck sparge and fewer rice hulls needed in wheat and rye beers
- potential for tighter crush which may hasten conversion (of improve conversion rate) in the mash
- may help some people with efficiency issues if it is an issue with their sparging technique or the geometry of their MT is susceptible to channeling

That's about all I can think of this morning.

 

[BrewinBigD]

As soon as my mill arives and i have grain im trying this. any efficency gains from conditioned malt?

 

[pjj2ba]

You can crush finer and still get good husks to prevent a stuck mash. Better crush typically results in higher efficiency

 

[Catawampus]

For those who have a lot of experience with this, does conditioning the malt necessitate adjusting the grain absorption factor at all? Or, is it such a small amount as not to matter there?

 

[pjj2ba]

I do not make any adjustments.

 

[Griff777]

And cheers to you sir!

So, I know I'm a broken record here, but what other benefits has anyone experienced? Once the whole vorlauf vs marbles debate is over, I'd love to hear what people have experienced with conditioning in relation to flavor, efficiency, etc. How about color? Tannin extraction? Did anyone here have an issue that they cleared up by moving to conditioning their malt?

As a total *Hijack* I would encourage all of you looking for better efficiency to get into water chemistry. The mill at my LHBS never got me much over 72-75% until I dove into that. It is a cheap, easy way to boost your efficiency.

One other benefit is it cuts down the dust factor alot. I have asthma and the dust used to be alot more bothersome for me. If milling indoors we all know about the dust level in the hobby shops we visit.

I don't know if it makes a better filter bed, and don't care as I have never experienced a stuck sparge. I think for me the benefit is the dust factor and a finer grind with intact hulls which I feel are less likely to induce tannins during mashout.

 

[cadarnell]

is this a good thing to do if you are using a corona mill?

 

[pjj2ba]

is this a good thing to do if you are using a corona mill?

It is an especially good thing to do when using a corona mill!!!!

 

[cadarnell]

It is an especially good thing to do when using a corona mill!!!!

thanks .. I hate the dust ... I'm gonna give it a try

 

[two_hearted]

I'm definitely starting to do this. All the dust from milling does bad things to me. I get an allergic reaction and my airway starts to swell up, itchy hands, trouble breathing all day. It's scared me away from milling my own grains for a while.

 

[kpr121]

Also to mention that if you ferment in the same area you brew you do not want all that grain dust flying around. There are plenty of nasties in grain that could possibly cause infection issues.

I am not scared of the dust because it is usually all settled by the time I am draining to the fermenters, but I like to keep it to a minimum just for extra protection.

 

[apshaffer]

I conditioned my malt for several batches last year and found no difference in efficiency. I may have used too much water because it gummed up my barley crusher every time, which was a huge pain. It did cut down on dust and make the crush look nice and fluffy. After a few batches and having to clean my barley crusher each time with a wire brush, I abandoned malt conditioning. To each his own, but I saw no measurable/noticeable benefit to malt conditioning.