Concord Kettle... which eBay seller?

[MaryB]

Contaminated welds, I don't see the actual kettle rusting, I see bad welding rusting. Someone used the wrong filler or wrong shielding gas.

Hey guys, Ben here. Just got forwarded this so I thought I'd chime in.



The picture in question is from 3 months ago and is of our older conicals which were US made. Our new conicals will be out in a couple months. Those will be partially made in China with all the welding done in our shop. It's just not possible to make them in the US any longer.



I'd double down on the 'cheap' and 'intentionally misleading'. We started selling our pots using Concord as a supplier when we first started out. Once we had the funding to do proper testing it came to our attention that the 304SS that we had requested was not 304. Instead it was a cheap stainless that our lab could not identify. When we demanded 304 going forward the prices shot up more than 30%. This 'J4' knockoff stainless isn't used because it's almost as good or better; it's used because it's much cheaper as it has almost no nickel.

I looked into the 'J4' stainless you speak of and that is just one company's 'proprietary' cheap Chinese SS blend with lower nickel and chromium. It is not recognized by the ASTM. In reference to 304SS, Concord's pots have 85% too little nickel and 25% too little chromium. Nickel is expensive and that's why they skimp on it out. You'll also see they have 400% more manganese than the 304 spec. This is because it artificially creates an austenitic grain structure that makes the material non-magnetic. Without this manganese it would be magnetic and a dead give away that it is not 304SS. All this was taught to me by our lab tech (I do not claim to be a metals expert) and might be a good question for John Palmer as he IS a metals expert.

In Concord's defense they are not metal experts. I spoke with the owner years ago and brought this issue up. As far as I could tell he had no idea about the lesser quality stainless they were selling. However since then they are fully aware of the material they are selling. Concord is trying to get customers the cheapest possible product that can possibly be made. Again this isn't a bad thing. The market obviously is calling for super cheap brewing pots HOWEVER lying about their composition and putting them in the same class as Spike, SS and Blichmann (as some have stated) is ridiculous.



J4 isn't anything. It's just a term a Chinese company came up with for their fake stainless. See HERE. Again notice the manganese that is 400% higher. A true 201 would be ok but it still has half the nickel of 304. The issue is with pitting and rusting weld seams. The pots have a bottom and side weld seam. I've attached some pictures I could find from old customers that had issues. These are just from normal brewing.



This is the very scary thing (in my eyes) because people see a $100 Concord kettle and a $250 Spike, SS or Blichmann and say, "well they are both 304SS". Well that isn't the case; not in the least. Our raw material costs are at least 30% more than the Concord. We are also testing the materials to make sure they meet specs and don't have lead, cadmium, etc. Lastly, we all have R&D budgets to invent, innovate and drive the hobby forward. My view is that Concord undermines this and it's why we stopped doing with them years ago.


I'm glad this was brought up as it is an issue in my eyes. I'd be happy to answer any questions or shed light on anything else.

-Ben

 

[MaryB]

Gee where do they compare to Spike in this ad?

Description

Available Sizes:

180 Quart Stock Pot. Size: Pot 23.5" Wide x 24" Height.
160 Quart Stock Pot. Size: Pot 22.25" Wide x 25.5" Height.
120 Quart Stock Pot. Size: Pot 22.5" Wide x 19" Height.
100 Quart Stock Pot. Size: Pot 19.5" Wide x 20" Height.
80 Quart Stock Pot. Size: Pot 18" Wide x 19" Height.
60 Quart Stock Pot. Size: Pot 17" Wide x 17" Height.
50 Quart Stock Pot. Size: Pot 15.5" Wide x 16" Height.
40 Quart Stock Pot. Size: Pot 15" Wide x 15.5" Height.
30 Quart Stock Pot. Size: Pot 14.25" Wide x 14" Height.
20 Quart Stock Pot. Size: Pot 11" Wide x 11" Height.

Material:

Stock pot is made from Commercial Quality Stainless Steel, Fully Polished.
Riveted handles for sturdiness.
This Stock pot is great for brewing beer
Very heavy duty construction, will last a lifetime.



-Commercial Grade 1.0mm thick walls-


All I see is them saying it is a commercial grade stainless which it is. Used in MANY commercial kitchens.

 

[Turkeyshot]

I ordered their 30qt. pot with the Commercial Grade 1.0mm thick walls, and it is great. I have had it for almost a year and no problems whatsoever. I clean it with BKF and use it quite a bit for brewing. I see this thing lasting for a long time.

 

[SpikeBrewing]

I won't argue passed this but I definitely disagree with you saying it's not possible to make them in the US anymore. There are definitely lines of attack you couldve taken...

Also, I know when the picture was posted. It's misleading, you can argue all you want but it portrayed that your conicals would be built in the USA and fact is they will not be. It's awesome you guys built in the US at one point but now you sold out to China, own up to it and let the customers know where the product is coming from. I'd have been first in line for a spike built US conical, anyone can import a Chinese one. All I'm saying is what you're saying about concord is exactly what I see you guys do on Facebook. Not just with the conicals but also your kettles. I'm sure your stuff is fantastic but it definitely rubs me the wrong way when you lead customers to think you build your stuff in the USA.

I own a part time machine shop, it's not my entire income but I do all my work in house. Every piece of equipment inside of it was built here in the United States of America. You say that it's not feasible to built equipment here because of price, you're dead wrong. Plenty of companies do it every single day, I own their equipment and I run my shop with it.

I'll rephrase; it's not possible to make them in the US and make a profit and/or at a price where anyone would purchase them. I used to think like you as well. "Everything has to be made in the USA!". Well it's a world economy and not everything can be made here. You look at any large company and they have parts made from all over the world. Some places are better and more economical than others. I've been in this business for 5 years. We've had many many companies in the US quote our kettles and conicals; none have been economical. They would double our prices and people aren't willing to buying a $500 15gal brew kettle. Our old conical was US made and $775. It didn't have the features that the SS did and it was more or less a flop because of the price and lack of features.

We do a lot of work in house with our fab guys and welders. All of our pickup tubes, false bottoms and fixtures are made in the USA. Our brand new punch machine was custom made for us in the USA as well. One of the biggest factors I look at when judging the success of Spike is "How many people are employing directly and indirectly in the US?". You say you have a shop as well? I'm assuming you have a welder in there? Miller or Lincoln? Well if you crack those 'US' machines open you'll see most the components come from China. Again it's just a world economy.

Considering they don't advertise as 304 stainless I see no issue! And one test by one company is NOT proof, it is proof that one bad batch of metal slipped through QC.

You still sound like sour grapes over the fact they undercut you badly in the homebrew market.

If you can't believe 2 completely independent test results done at different times then I can't convince ya! However they do advertise as 304. 18/8 means 18% chromium and 8% nickel which is 304; 304 and 18/8 are interchangeable. Please see attached for just 3 quick references that I found from them. Also the "Commercial Quality" doesn't mean anything. It's just a marketing thing. They could put "Space Age Quality" and it would still be crappy knock off SS.

We are not sour at all. They are under cutting with a material that isn't what the customer thinks they are buying. Now if the customers cares or not is another thing but I think they should know what they are getting.

Contaminated welds, I don't see the actual kettle rusting, I see bad welding rusting. Someone used the wrong filler or wrong shielding gas.

I'm not a materials expert but I will consider myself very knowledgeable on welding. It's not a wrong filler or shielding gas issue. The issue is there is almost no chromium and nickel. When you weld it heats the metal up super hot and you can 'blow away' all the chromium. This pretty much losses all the 'stainless' qualities in the HAZ (heat affected zone). This is why you will always see the rust issues along the bottom weld seam (as shown above), wall seam or around any couplers being welded. We were having a ton of issues with rusting bottom weld seams and couplers welding. Come to find out it's because the 304 we ordered was not 304 at all.



Again not trying to get a flame war going (as I know that tends to happen on the forums) but I'm just trying to give the facts for others that are interested.

-Ben

 

[petey_c]

I imagine that running a retail business in today's market is a real PITA. It would be great if everything we purchased could be made here in the US, but like Spike said it's a world economy. You're not just competing with the Acme pot company of Walla Walla. I try and stay right in the middle, not the cheapest POS, but not the pot that comes with an app. (okay, I'm old...) If you think those pots are cheap, go to aliexpress. https://www.aliexpress.com/item/Hea..._2&btsid=04d89891-6294-40b6-b3d0-87b1881584a4 (man, that's a long link...) $32 for the pot. Doesn't state how big it is. $67 for shipping. 23 day delivery. In the detail section, Material: Metal. "Constructed from durable, long-lasting,food grade stainless steel." "Food grade"? I wonder what that means... I think if I'm gong to spend $99 on a stockpot, I'd want something better than "food grade" and go with a more reputable company here in the US. (I know it's very likely that the pot will not be made here though...)

 

[02RedWS6TA]

I'll rephrase; it's not possible to make them in the US and make a profit and/or at a price where anyone would purchase them. I used to think like you as well. "Everything has to be made in the USA!". Well it's a world economy and not everything can be made here. You look at any large company and they have parts made from all over the world. Some places are better and more economical than others. I've been in this business for 5 years. We've had many many companies in the US quote our kettles and conicals; none have been economical. They would double our prices and people aren't willing to buying a $500 15gal brew kettle. Our old conical was US made and $775. It didn't have the features that the SS did and it was more or less a flop because of the price and lack of features.

We do a lot of work in house with our fab guys and welders. All of our pickup tubes, false bottoms and fixtures are made in the USA. Our brand new punch machine was custom made for us in the USA as well. One of the biggest factors I look at when judging the success of Spike is "How many people are employing directly and indirectly in the US?". You say you have a shop as well? I'm assuming you have a welder in there? Miller or Lincoln? Well if you crack those 'US' machines open you'll see most the components come from China. Again it's just a world economy.

-Ben

How does Blichmann do it then? Morebeer? Both have conicals made here according to them, Blichmann still makes all their kettles here unless they outright lie about it. They seem to be doing pretty well so I'd honestly like to hear your opinion on how they make it work. Get together with SS, blichmann, and more beer to sign a better contract with US suppliers? I assume your kettles and SS kettles come from the same sweat shop in China so why not contract together with a supplier here in the States? If all of the home brew guys were supplying US built equipment where else would people go? Get together with the big players and make it happen, support our country, and our people. It's only global because people cheap out and move our jobs to China to manufacture garbage cheaper. My 50 year old slip roller that gets abused every use VS a Chinese slip roller would be a joke.

I'm not hating on you guys for building your stuff in China, all I'm saying is you misrepresent where your stuff is built on Facebook quite a bit and your hating on Concord for misrepresenting how theirs is built. Pot, kettle, black.

I do have a Miller, it's an older one when Miller still made their electronics in house. My plasma table was built by me, electronics and gantry built by small US companies. Plasma is a Hypertherm, built all in house including electronics. Compressor by Saylor Beall, slip roller by Pexto, and so on. I'd like to pick up a tig to start doing some beer related things but anything in my range is Chinese junk. Lincolns new square wave 200 is built in Mexico and the number of DOA units is staggering.

 

[SpikeBrewing]

More Beer's tanks are not made in the US. Blichmann recently moved their 20 gallon and smaller tanks back to the US. However they recently came out with the 'economy' Anvil line which indicates to me that the US line isn't selling as well.

Unfortunately that's not how business works. The biggest cost with US production is always tooling. When we quoted our kettles with a US manufacturer the tooling alone for each tank was about $100,000. So that would be about a half of a million dollars just in tooling. It was not possible for our company and made 0 financial sense.

We do a ton of fabrication and welding in house. All of our pickup tubes and false bottoms are laser cut in the US. Our boxes are made in the US. Even our T-shirts are made in the US and screen printed here as well. All this would be cheaper to do overseas or use imported goods. We've taken the conscience decision to keep that work here. I'm very proud of the work we keep in the US! I think this is something we'll just have to agree to disagree on. Best part about America is it's your right to have what ever opinion you'd like!

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QwiuOu614UY[/ame]

https://www.facebook.com/624101300947114/videos/1221955494495022/

-Ben

 

[Xernex]

not the cheapest POS, but not the pot that comes with an app. (okay, I'm old...)

I'm totally in for a pot that comes with an App...@SpikeBrewing can i get one made haha

 

[stratslinger]

Chalk me up as another Concord user here - but I have to agree with the guys from Spike that it's just not the same material. Or, if it somehow is, it's just not handled/assembled as well as the nicer names.

A buddy of mine has a small collection of Blichman pots - damn near works of art, and I've never noticed a spot of rust of corrosion on any of them. Clean them up with a little BKF once in a while to knock off any kettle residue (that fogginess that builds up after a few brews) and they still look brand new.

My Concord kettles? When I first received them, I had 2" tri-clamp ferrules welded onto them by a local welding shop - these are how I attach my heating elements. I have tried passivating my kettles numerous times with BKF in paste form, and with undiluted starsan. From the first time I ever leak-tested the things, if I leave water in them for longer than a typical brewday, or if I don't towel the inside down to dry after cleaning, I wind up with rust spots up the sides of the kettle. Yes, I get similar ones near the welds to what was pictured earlier, and that I _know_ is down to a welder I'll not use again. But when the rust spots are in random spots on the bottom, or up the sides of the kettle, I kinda can't put that down to welding. Sure, a little BKF cleans those spots up fine, and those kettles have made some fine beer - but had I known this was what I'd deal with, the absolute minimum I would've done is to order the Bayou Classic kettles for a couple bucks more. Whenever I look for my next upgrade, I'll be giving Spike an awful close look...

 

[cbier60]

Apologies if you don't use it but as i said i wasn't sure, just thought i read that somewhere.

As for concord not using 304, you sure about that? This listing (Here) states "Stock pot is made from Fully Polished Restaurant Grade 18/10 T304 Stainless Steel.". Granted that one is a bit pricier than others.

I own the equivalent 80 qt pot sold here, which I paid $160 for in Jan 2014. It's definitely a step above the budget pots Concord sells most of and what have been discussed in detail here. It's a beast (probably heavier than necessary) and appears to be excellent quality stainless with the tri-ply bottom. Since I'm not a metallurgist, I can't say whether it's 18/10, 18/8, 304, 316, or whatever, but it has never shown any sign of rust or other deficiency. It cleans up superbly with regular PBW and occasional BKF. Granted, it's just a stock pot with no beautiful TIG-welded ports. It was definitely a sound investment. If I were to buy a new kettle again, there's a good chance I'd spring for the higher quality and design optimized for brewing that Spike and Blichmann provide. I doubt many (if any) people think they're getting an equivalent product from Concord for a small percentage of the price, but I do think they're getting their money's worth.

Blichmann recently moved their 20 gallon and smaller tanks back to the US. However they recently came out with the 'economy' Anvil line which indicates to me that the US line isn't selling as well.

You certainly have better visibility and insight into the market, but I don't view the introduction of the Anvil line as a sign that the main Blichmann line isn't selling. I think they're just trying to capture a larger part of the market, since not that many homebrewers can afford the high end equipment. Like Spike, they're trying to capture some of the buyers that may be buying concord or Bayou Classic.

 

[MaryB]

Current ads for current product, have you stopped to think they are testing materials now? And they are NOT advertised like that on their website!

I'll rephrase; it's not possible to make them in the US and make a profit and/or at a price where anyone would purchase them. I used to think like you as well. "Everything has to be made in the USA!". Well it's a world economy and not everything can be made here. You look at any large company and they have parts made from all over the world. Some places are better and more economical than others. I've been in this business for 5 years. We've had many many companies in the US quote our kettles and conicals; none have been economical. They would double our prices and people aren't willing to buying a $500 15gal brew kettle. Our old conical was US made and $775. It didn't have the features that the SS did and it was more or less a flop because of the price and lack of features.

We do a lot of work in house with our fab guys and welders. All of our pickup tubes, false bottoms and fixtures are made in the USA. Our brand new punch machine was custom made for us in the USA as well. One of the biggest factors I look at when judging the success of Spike is "How many people are employing directly and indirectly in the US?". You say you have a shop as well? I'm assuming you have a welder in there? Miller or Lincoln? Well if you crack those 'US' machines open you'll see most the components come from China. Again it's just a world economy.




If you can't believe 2 completely independent test results done at different times then I can't convince ya! However they do advertise as 304. 18/8 means 18% chromium and 8% nickel which is 304; 304 and 18/8 are interchangeable. Please see attached for just 3 quick references that I found from them. Also the "Commercial Quality" doesn't mean anything. It's just a marketing thing. They could put "Space Age Quality" and it would still be crappy knock off SS.

We are not sour at all. They are under cutting with a material that isn't what the customer thinks they are buying. Now if the customers cares or not is another thing but I think they should know what they are getting.




I'm not a materials expert but I will consider myself very knowledgeable on welding. It's not a wrong filler or shielding gas issue. The issue is there is almost no chromium and nickel. When you weld it heats the metal up super hot and you can 'blow away' all the chromium. This pretty much losses all the 'stainless' qualities in the HAZ (heat affected zone). This is why you will always see the rust issues along the bottom weld seam (as shown above), wall seam or around any couplers being welded. We were having a ton of issues with rusting bottom weld seams and couplers welding. Come to find out it's because the 304 we ordered was not 304 at all.



Again not trying to get a flame war going (as I know that tends to happen on the forums) but I'm just trying to give the facts for others that are interested.

-Ben

 

[02RedWS6TA]

More Beer's tanks are not made in the US. Blichmann recently moved their 20 gallon and smaller tanks back to the US. However they recently came out with the 'economy' Anvil line which indicates to me that the US line isn't selling as well.

Unfortunately that's not how business works. The biggest cost with US production is always tooling. When we quoted our kettles with a US manufacturer the tooling alone for each tank was about $100,000. So that would be about a half of a million dollars.

-Ben

So more beer is lying then? Serious question, it says right on their site their conicals are built here. You'd know more than an of us. When I asked blichmann over the winter about their conicals and pots they said they were all made here.

So no pots are made in the US at companies that already have tooling? I can't believe no one in the states makes them already for commercial cooking, that's nuts.

 

[SpikeBrewing]

Current ads for current product, have you stopped to think they are testing materials now? And they are NOT advertised like that on their website!

I'm not exactly sure what you mean by current ads for current products but I do know how Concord operates as we worked with them for years and spent a lot of money with them. The metallurgy report that was posted by someone else was very recent. It sounds like you have your mind made up. Cheers!

So more beer is lying then? Serious question, it says right on their site their conicals are built here. You'd know more than an of us. When I asked blichmann over the winter about their conicals and pots they said they were all made here.

So no pots are made in the US at companies that already have tooling? I can't believe no one in the states makes them already for commercial cooking, that's nuts.

The More Beer and Blichmann conicals look to be made from the same company we had them made from. I see More Beer has their 14gal USA made conical on sale for $300. I'd be surprised if they continue to offer these going forward. Like I said before these can not be made in the USA any longer and still offer any profit for the company. It's unfortunate but it's the fact of the matter. Blichmann has their 20gal and smaller pots made here though.

Volrath which is about 100mi from our facility is one of (if not the largest) kettle manufacturers in the US. To just stamp the kettle (no polish, no logo, no volume etching, no lid, no handles) it would have increased our cost by 2. Now tack on the $100,000 tooling fee per kettle and it quickly becomes unfeasible.

-Ben

 

[wilserbrewer]

View attachment ImageUploadedByHome Brew1473512796.487214.jpg

 

[02RedWS6TA]

View attachment 369534

Lol my point

 

[SpikeBrewing]

.

Lol my point

Thank you for bringing this to our attention. I'm hoping this can show our true intentions as we've had this come up before. Please see an email from back in June regarding this issue. This is a supplier mistake but we will make sure it is corrected right away.

If you see on the main link it is correct: https://www.homebrewsupply.com/brewing-equipment/spike-brewing.html?gclid=COThn7OEhc8CFQIPaQodeRcCpg

 

[02RedWS6TA]

I hope you don't take any of this the wrong way man, I'm not attacking you or anything like that. I think you guys make great stuff, your products always look awesome and seem to be top notch. I've sent a couple people your way and I have spoken with you in emails a few times. You answer all questions asked and really seem to have great customer service. These things happen, things get twisted, or look misinterpreted at times. One of concords resellers saying it's 304 vs "commercial grade" and "built in the USA" vs "welded in the USA" .

I have no doubts your kettles are better than my concord kettle. I bought mine with a system and it's definitely not the highest quality kettle on the market.

 

[SpikeBrewing]

I hope you don't take any of this the wrong way man, I'm not attacking you or anything like that. I think you guys make great stuff, your products always look awesome and seem to be top notch. I've sent a couple people your way and I have spoken with you in emails a few times. You answer all questions asked and really seem to have great customer service. These things happen, things get twisted, or look misinterpreted at times. One of concords resellers saying it's 304 vs "commercial grade" and "built in the USA" vs "welded in the USA" .

I have no doubts your kettles are better than my concord kettle. I bought mine with a system and it's definitely not the highest quality kettle on the market.

Absolutely not. It's an open discussion and I haven't been on the forums in a while so it's good to get the 'pulse of the customer'. I just want to educate consumers of what is going on behind the scenes. Concord isn't a brand and they do not have wholesalers they are just a turn and burn importer.

We don't look at Concord as a competitor and we're not trying to sway people to buy our products. They sell an ultra economy pot and we are a premium quality brand. It's better to have educated consumers out there for all of us!

-Ben

 

[MidAtlanticBrew]

Hey man, Here's my view. I hope to be alive and functioning for another 35 years. I hope I don't inadvertantly poison my friends. I have a 21 year old daughter, who will have children some day, and she drinks my homebrew. The fact that SS, Blich and Spike test the metals is enough for me to pay a little extra. China is a country where the leading baby food manufacturer put poison in baby food to pass a specification. Sure the CEO was executed when caught, but many babies died. This was just 4 years ago.

Have fun, take your risk to save $100, not me ...... The fact is you do not know and I find it amazing that what risks people will take to save $100, which over a lifetime of brewing is about 3 bucks a year. People pay $1000 per year in car insurance but won't pay $3 in brewing equipment health insurance. Makes little sense to me.

 

[cbier60]

I posted earlier in this thread that I have been very happy with the quality of my higher-end heavy duty 20 gal Concorde kettle, which I paid $160 for. Well, I took the plunge for a bargain cave Spike kettle that I found through this thread. The Concorde pot is well-made, but it's just a stock pot (albeit with a steamer insert that's great for BIAB), not a brewing-optimized kettle. For only $60 more, I'm getting a better 1.2 aspect ratio and 2 welded couplers plus a few other features for a true brew kettle. I'll be glad to post back in a few weeks after using the new kettle to provide an objective comparison of the two.