Complex flavors from grains or flavorings?

[StrikeThree]

Im going to jump off the cliff with a buddy of mine and brew an imperial stout which we plan to age for 5 years and pop on our 40th birthdays. I'm inexperienced (<10 batches under my belt) and he has never brewed before. We are planning on getting a bunch of RIS's (old Rasputin, Yeti, brooklyn, etc) and doing a practice PM brewday with Edworts Haus Ale (Ive only done extract + extract with steeping) while we plan our RIS recipe and order the ingredients.

We are going to take notes on the particular flavors (chocolate, oak, prune, raisin, etc) we like in each beer, and decide what we would like and what we would like to taste in our brew. Here lies my question. If we want vanilla, raisin, oak, and chocolate overtones, should I just add those flavors via extract/ fruit in secondary etc, or should we try to cater the grain bill to the particular flavors we are looking for? Reason I ask is I know that it will be a complecated enough process, and I am split as to whether or not to go the full monty on grain or use a super simple set of grains and add the flavors.

If you have had success before with getting complex flavors from grains, which grains have you used and which flavors did you find? Did you get different flavors at different mash or steep temperatures? Or would you just not bother, and add a chocolate bar to the boil and some JD wood chips, a vanilla bean, and a fifth of MM to secondary and call it a day?

Any help would be appreciated,

thanks!

 

[Clonefarmer]

We are going to take notes on the particular flavors (chocolate, oak, prune, raisin, etc) we like in each beer, and decide what we would like and what we would like to taste in our brew. Here lies my question. If we want vanilla, raisin, oak, and chocolate overtones, should I just add those flavors via extract/ fruit in secondary etc, or should we try to cater the grain bill to the particular flavors we are looking for? Reason I ask is I know that it will be a complecated enough process, and I am split as to whether or not to go the full monty on grain or use a super simple set of grains and add the flavors.

IMO getting the flavors from grains and oak is much better than the same flavors from extracts. There are a ton of possibilities with natural ingredients.

Dark crystals can give dried fruit flavors. More or less depending on quantity.

Chocolate malt, Carafa, Roasted barley and other dark malts will give you a wide range of chocolate, coffee and roasted flavors.

Oak has a wide range of flavors it can impart. The type of Oak and how it was toasted can vary the flavor widely. Or if you age in an Oak barrel it can have a wide range of flavors from what was aged in the barrel.

 

[MVKTR2]

If you add a fifth of MM to 100 gallons it'll be overkill, much less 10 gallons. So knix that idea right away. Based on the flavors you're describing most everything you want could/should come from grains & oaking on chips soaked in your favorite bourbon.

Clonefarmer's response is right on.

My approach would be as follows.

First make sure I'm up for this effort. Meaning sanitation, patience, oxygen caps, etc.

Second make 60-100% of your crystal malt Special-B or similar to impart those dark fruit, fruit pit flavors.

Third decide if you want a roasty stout or a more malty stout. My fav. RIS is probably TenFidy which is decidedly malty, but if your favorite is Yeti you probably prefer something more roasty. Note how dry you brew this will have a real effect on how this aspect is perceived.

Fourth decide what you want from the yeast profile, estery/english or clean/american and choose your yeast accordingly.

Fifth taking into account wether you're looking for roasty or malty and what type of yeast you've chosen decide on a mash schedule. No matter what you're going to want to mash this lower and longer, how low/long depends on what type of finish you want from the bier.

Sixth forget any hop addition other than bittering if you're sure you aren't touching it for 5 years.

Seventh when pitching yeast, calculate the proper amount and remember to oxygenate more than usual. It doesn't have to be fancy just put a little extra thought into it.

Finally I'd research, or ideally brew a stout/brown ale and oak it to get a personal idea on the subject, how much oak to put in the secondary and for how long. (how long should be determined by taste/sampling after a couple weeks etc) Only put in as much bourbon as the chips will soak up in 2 or 3 days, which will be substantial. Bourbon/Whiskey imparts quite a bit of vanilla but half a vanilla bean won't hurt either.

Voila... you've got yourself a tasty RIS if executed properly.

FWIW I think making a good big bier is quite a bit easier than making a good small bier. There are so many ingredients etc. that it's bound to turn out good unless something just goofs up along the way. Also I'd taste it every year at the anniversary to see how it progresses.

Schlante,
Phillip

 

[StrikeThree]

Thanks guys! Your responses have been added to the notes section of my BeerSmith recipe.

I'd much rather get the grains to provide the flavors, I'll check out my books and online to figure out which grains will provide which flavors. I figure that since I am doing a partial mash, most of my bill is decided for me, but I hope to be pretty creative with that 10% or so while still staying on style.

Right now, Im looking at BIAB with 2# of 2 row for the partial with 120L crystal, Chocolate Malt, Black Patent, Roasted barley, Flaked Rye and Flaked wheat on 9# of pils extract or so. I dont have my % on the specialty grains worked out until I get the flavors figured out I guess, but I'll shoot for about 1.100 with some combination of these or similar.

I'll update when I get the recipe finalized, any other ideas/guidance are much appreciated!

Thanks again,

Brian

 

[Revvy]

Click on my "special brew" link in my sig...That's the story of MY 5 year Barleywine, there's a lot of discussion of ingredients in there.

 

[StrikeThree]

Thanks Revvy!-

Congrats on your megabrew and best wishes on your health. We can toast in 5!

 

[StrikeThree]

Second make 60-100% of your crystal malt Special-B or similar to impart those dark fruit, fruit pit flavors.

Thanks, I love those flavors, but not sure about my friend, I've 50/50's the Crystal 120 with special B in the preliminary recipe, Id like to back off some of the coffee as well, and up the chocolate flavors, any ideas?