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Cold crashing problems and questions!!!

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If you want to know whether or not there is a CO2 "blanket" protecting your beer, just light a match, lift the lid of your fermenting bucket, and lower the lit match into it toward the beer. If the match goes out, there's plenty of CO2 in there. If it doesn't go out, then there's normal air in there.
 
Interesting thread.

I do have a question more specifically about hooking Co2 to a conical (stout tanks) before dropping the temp. I rigged a QD to a tri clover so I can swap out the blow off and apply pressure. As for the regulator, I had an extra laying around and replaced the 0-60 low pressure gauge with a 0-15 gauge so I can dial in 1-2 psi a lot easier.

So first question, is there any issue using this? I suppose since it's a regulator that technically can go up to 60 psi, it's a little touchy setting it to such a low psi, but I was able to get it there with the new gauge (perhaps I can swap out the whole regulator for a 0-15 one down the line). I see the low pressure propane regulator as a good option but with the set up I'm explaining, it shouldn't be needed, right?

And second, do I leave it attached the entire time while the temp is dropping or just hit it with some co2 and unhook. My instinct says the former would be fine but I'm also a little iffy about leaving it hooked up.
 
Interesting thread.

I do have a question more specifically about hooking Co2 to a conical (stout tanks) before dropping the temp. I rigged a QD to a tri clover so I can swap out the blow off and apply pressure. As for the regulator, I had an extra laying around and replaced the 0-60 low pressure gauge with a 0-15 gauge so I can dial in 1-2 psi a lot easier.

So first question, is there any issue using this? I suppose since it's a regulator that technically can go up to 60 psi, it's a little touchy setting it to such a low psi, but I was able to get it there with the new gauge (perhaps I can swap out the whole regulator for a 0-15 one down the line). I see the low pressure propane regulator as a good option but with the set up I'm explaining, it shouldn't be needed, right?

And second, do I leave it attached the entire time while the temp is dropping or just hit it with some co2 and unhook. My instinct says the former would be fine but I'm also a little iffy about leaving it hooked up.

The photo earlier in the thread is of my Stout fermenter and propane regulator. I was actually going to buy a low range regulator like you have before Orangehero turned me onto the propane regulator. I went with that because it was perfectly capable of doing what I wanted for basically no money. You will be fine with the adjustable regulator as long as you can accurately set it to a low pressure. Just keep in mind that Stout tanks are only rated for a few PSI. If I put too much on mine, I can hear it leak out of the top gasket.

Leave it hooked up for the entire cold crash. That way, you don't accidentally end up with a little vacuum in the fermenter. When you open the dump valve or racking port, you may suck some air in. Just avoid that situation completely and leave it hooked up. It won't waste gas, so why not?

Also, you can take this one step further. Leave the gas on when you rack to kegs or bottle. Doing that prevents air from going into the fermenter and coming into contact with the beer as you rack. It will if you take it off. Again, just avoid doing that. Gas is cheap. Doing all of this stuff results in the craziest, freshest, hoppy beers I have ever tasted that do not degrade whatsoever over the course of the kegs. I will never go back.

I'm in the process of making a port for my fermenter that will blow CO2 into the headspace when I open it up to dry hop. The idea is that positive pressure will be in the headspace, so CO2 will blow out of the dry hop port as the hops get dumped in. O2 will not be able to enter since CO2 will be flowing in the opposite direction. That should be my last step in completely eliminating O2.
 
Thanks kevink! Appreciate the answers.

You may have already said this earlier in the thread, but do you also do a full pressurized transfer to your kegs (and weigh them to know they are full)?
 
Thanks kevink! Appreciate the answers.

You may have already said this earlier in the thread, but do you also do a full pressurized transfer to your kegs (and weigh them to know they are full)?

I don't, but that's only because the racking port on my fermenter is a few inches above the top of my kegs. Gravity works fine in my situation. I suppose the half pound of CO2 makes it go a little faster, though. I fill sealed (lids and posts in place), CO2 purged kegs until beer comes out of the pressure relief valve. I then push out ~12oz of beer and then purge that 12oz headspace with CO2 many times with about 30psi.
 
I don't, but that's only because the racking port on my fermenter is a few inches above the top of my kegs. Gravity works fine in my situation. I suppose the half pounds of CO2 makes it go a little faster, though. I fill sealed (lids and posts in place), CO2 purged kegs until beer comes out of the pressure relief valve. I then push out ~12oz of beer and then purge that 12oz headspace with CO2 many times with about 30psi.

I do similar. Purge kegs by pushing out a starsan solution then transfer into (2) sealed kegs at once using a tee with 2-3psi pressure with beer going into the OUT connection until beer comes out of a QD I placed on the IN or I start to get rub in the transfer. I then carb with a carb stone that is added into the corny lid @ lagering temp. After a couple days I transfer to another purged keg (this kelps carb quickly without having a BUCH of CO2 stones and leaves behind an extra "cold crash" worth of trub.....makes it so that when I move the kegs they don't get re cloudy.
 
I still have to ask (simply because only one person has answered this): Have any of you had a beer that you felt was oxygenated, even after extended storage, after using normal (non-extraordinary) techniques? I have not. I'll freely admit that maybe I'm too stupid to recognize it. But, some of my aged brews have been consumed by people who should know if it demonstrated oxygenation. None have mentioned it. And I specifically ask about common off flavors.

Mike
 
Maybe I missed it in the thread, if not, maybe one of you Engineers could figure it out?

Assumptions/inputs: A fermenter with roughly 1.25 gallons of headspace (about 5.25 gallons beer in 6.5 gal carboy), temperature for fermentation has been held at 50F, and I want to cold crash to 33F.

1. What volume of air is pulled in through the airlock until temp stabilizes at 33F?

2. What is the O2 concentration in the headspace after the 50F to 33F drop, assuming the fermenter has not been opened since fermentation completion?
 
I still have to ask (simply because only one person has answered this): Have any of you had a beer that you felt was oxygenated, even after extended storage, after using normal (non-extraordinary) techniques? I have not. I'll freely admit that maybe I'm too stupid to recognize it. But, some of my aged brews have been consumed by people who should know if it demonstrated oxygenation. None have mentioned it. And I specifically ask about common off flavors.

Mike

The point of "extraordinary" techniques is not just to prevent flavors you don't want, but to reduce the degradation of the things you do want (the most volatile hop flavors and aromas). Good IPA falls off fast, so everything you can do helps. Haven't you tasted the change in a case of IPA as you drink it over two or three weeks?
 
So I thought this would be a good place to ask my question...

For a lager, after the d-rest, while still at 60F, could you just transfer to the keg, hit with co2, cold crash/lager in the keg, server after x amount of time? Or, would cold crashing like this leave to much sediment in the keg? Or, first couple of pulls would be "yeasty" and the rest of the keg is gold?

Thanks in advance!
 
The point of "extraordinary" techniques is not just to prevent flavors you don't want, but to reduce the degradation of the things you do want (the most volatile hop flavors and aromas). Good IPA falls off fast, so everything you can do helps. Haven't you tasted the change in a case of IPA as you drink it over two or three weeks?

I have tasted change in every beer I have ever made as they age. But, I have never tasted oxygenation, even with pretty extensive aging. My IPAs never seem to last too long. I usually do not age my "present use" ales.

But, you didn't answer my question.

Mike
 
It isn't a question of if but when. Even the best commercial packaging of beer still introduces oxygen. It isn't a one single reaction it's an ongoing process. The more oxygen is present the faster it proceeds.

That you have never tasted it only shows you are not very sensitive or skilled regarding those flavor compounds.

In some styles the flavors are not very noticeable or even desirable while in styles like American IPA the delicate aromatics are especially susceptible and deteriorate rapidly.
 
It isn't a question of if but when. Even the best commercial packaging of beer still introduces oxygen. It isn't a one single reaction it's an ongoing process. The more oxygen is present the faster it proceeds.

That you have never tasted it only shows you are not very sensitive or skilled regarding those flavor compounds.

In some styles the flavors are not very noticeable or even desirable while in styles like American IPA the delicate aromatics are especially susceptible and deteriorate rapidly.

Or that my precautions are working.

Mike
 
So I thought this would be a good place to ask my question...

For a lager, after the d-rest, while still at 60F, could you just transfer to the keg, hit with co2, cold crash/lager in the keg, server after x amount of time? Or, would cold crashing like this leave to much sediment in the keg? Or, first couple of pulls would be "yeasty" and the rest of the keg is gold?

Thanks in advance!
Yes Kegs make excellent vessels to lager in. You will have some material settling on the bottom of the keg. That will most likely get picked up in the first couple pours.
 
Well I got it figured out for the most part, with some of the ideas people posted on here, and it seems to be working very well. I'm waiting on a few more parts to finish it off, and I have to fabricate a stainless bracket(already fabbed one up out of mild steel and it works good), and the I'll take some pics and post it on here. Basically I don't think any oxygen gets in whatsoever the way I have it, and it worked perfectly when I cold crashed and only sucked in co2 instead of oxygen or sanitizer water. But on the same token, it wasn't the cheapest of setups either.
 
If you want to know whether or not there is a CO2 "blanket" protecting your beer, just light a match, lift the lid of your fermenting bucket, and lower the lit match into it toward the beer. If the match goes out, there's plenty of CO2 in there. If it doesn't go out, then there's normal air in there.

Just for giggles, I did this. The match went out. This is 5 days after fermentation was complete. Kegging day.

Mike
 
Maybe I missed it in the thread, if not, maybe one of you Engineers could figure it out?

Assumptions/inputs: A fermenter with roughly 1.25 gallons of headspace (about 5.25 gallons beer in 6.5 gal carboy), temperature for fermentation has been held at 50F, and I want to cold crash to 33F.

1. What volume of air is pulled in through the airlock until temp stabilizes at 33F?

2. What is the O2 concentration in the headspace after the 50F to 33F drop, assuming the fermenter has not been opened since fermentation completion?
Took me a while to get to this, but here are the numbers:
50˚F = 283.15˚K
33˚F = 273.71˚K
CO2 volume after cold crash = 1.25 gal * 273.71˚K / 283.15˚K = 1.2083 gal
Air backfill after cold crash = 1.25 gal - 1.2083 gal = 0.0417 gal
O2 ppm in headspace = 210,000 ppm * 0.0417 gal / 1.25 gal = 7005 ppm
TPO contribution from backfill air = 7005 ppm * 1.25 gal / (1.25 gal + 5.25 gal) = 1347 ppm​
Questions?

Brew on :mug:
 
Just for giggles, I did this. The match went out. This is 5 days after fermentation was complete. Kegging day.

Mike

All this tells you is that there is not enough O2 to support combustion, which means that the CO2 interdiffusion with the atmosphere is not complete. You could still have 10's of thousands of ppm of O2 in the fermenter even tho the match goes out (normal air is about 21% or 210,000 ppm O2.) Minimum O2 concentration to support combustion is about 15% or 150,000 ppm (ref.)

Brew on :mug:
 
Took me a while to get to this, but here are the numbers:
50˚F = 283.15˚K
33˚F = 273.71˚K
CO2 volume after cold crash = 1.25 gal * 273.71˚K / 283.15˚K = 1.2083 gal
Air backfill after cold crash = 1.25 gal - 1.2083 gal = 0.0417 gal
O2 ppm in headspace = 210,000 ppm * 0.0417 gal / 1.25 gal = 7005 ppm
TPO contribution from backfill air = 7005 ppm * 1.25 gal / (1.25 gal + 5.25 gal) = 1347 ppm​
Questions?

Brew on :mug:

How much does the volume of liquid contract?
 
How much does the volume of liquid contract?
It's a much smaller number than the gas contraction, and if you want to correct for liquid contraction, you also need to correct for the contraction of the fermentation vessel, otherwise you will over correct for the liquid contraction. The errors in the liquid volume and headspace volume measurement are most likely going to be larger than the effects of liquid and vessel contraction, so correcting for them is just going to give you a false sense of additional accuracy. But, feel free to knock yourself out adding rigor that is buried by the basic measurement inaccuracies.

Brew on :mug:
 
Took me a while to get to this, but here are the numbers:
50˚F = 283.15˚K
33˚F = 273.71˚K
CO2 volume after cold crash = 1.25 gal * 273.71˚K / 283.15˚K = 1.2083 gal
Air backfill after cold crash = 1.25 gal - 1.2083 gal = 0.0417 gal
O2 ppm in headspace = 210,000 ppm * 0.0417 gal / 1.25 gal = 7005 ppm
TPO contribution from backfill air = 7005 ppm * 1.25 gal / (1.25 gal + 5.25 gal) = 1347 ppm​
Questions?

Brew on :mug:

This is assuming a one way airlock. The "tin foil" method others have discussed would have more mixture
 
Wait - why?
Does the contraction care if the air ingress is under a foil cap or through an air lock?

Cheers!
With a foil cap, some of the CO2 can diffuse out of the FV, allowing a little more air to enter the headspace. Whether it's significant or not would depend on how tight the foil seals, and how long the cold crash period lasts. Personally, I think the foil would have to be pretty loose to make much of a difference.

Brew on :mug:
 
Maybe I missed it in the thread, if not, maybe one of you Engineers could figure it out?

Assumptions/inputs: A fermenter with roughly 1.25 gallons of headspace (about 5.25 gallons beer in 6.5 gal carboy), temperature for fermentation has been held at 50F, and I want to cold crash to 33F.

1. What volume of air is pulled in through the airlock until temp stabilizes at 33F?

2. What is the O2 concentration in the headspace after the 50F to 33F drop, assuming the fermenter has not been opened since fermentation completion?

Took me a while to get to this, but here are the numbers:
50˚F = 283.15˚K
33˚F = 273.71˚K
CO2 volume after cold crash = 1.25 gal * 273.71˚K / 283.15˚K = 1.2083 gal
Air backfill after cold crash = 1.25 gal - 1.2083 gal = 0.0417 gal
O2 ppm in headspace = 210,000 ppm * 0.0417 gal / 1.25 gal = 7005 ppm
TPO contribution from backfill air = 7005 ppm * 1.25 gal / (1.25 gal + 5.25 gal) = 1347 ppm​
Questions?

Brew on :mug:

A 6.5 gal carboy actually holds 7.0 gal. I've filled all of mine 1 gal at a time to make volume markings, and 7 gal will take you to the knock of the carboy. Just throwing that out there, as it exacerbates these numbers a bit.
 
So I've replied to this thread a while back and then kind of kept an eye on it over time; fascinating debates on partial pressures and how various methods will affect gases in our finished beer. I've been educated on some myths I believed to be true! That said, I've kept this question rolling around in the dark recesses of my wooden dome the last month, and this is what I come up with. If your brew is big (Belgian, stout, porter, sours, etc.) most home brewers are probably moving the beer to a bright tank for considerable aging (that's what I do), so cold crashing isn't really necessary because the aging time clears the beer. If you are brewing a "lighter" beer (IPA, bitter, pilsner, pale ale, etc.), you usually need to crash the beer to clear it, but you really wouldn't want to keep it around long enough to the point that off flavors will develop anyway. I (and all the people that come over and help me) usually push through an IPA, bitter, or pale ale within 3 weeks to a month. My point is: If the exclusion of O2 is an exercise in methodical perfection, to each his own, brew on! But in reality, I really don't think the O2 volume introduced at crashing a 5 gallon fermentor would introduce enough O2 to stale your beer in the period of time most homebrewers blow through a 5 gallon batch. That's been my experience, but I don't bottle, so maybe you have something there.
 
So I've replied to this thread a while back and then kind of kept an eye on it over time; fascinating debates on partial pressures and how various methods will affect gases in our finished beer. I've been educated on some myths I believed to be true! That said, I've kept this question rolling around in the dark recesses of my wooden dome the last month, and this is what I come up with. If your brew is big (Belgian, stout, porter, sours, etc.) most home brewers are probably moving the beer to a bright tank for considerable aging (that's what I do), so cold crashing isn't really necessary because the aging time clears the beer. If you are brewing a "lighter" beer (IPA, bitter, pilsner, pale ale, etc.), you usually need to crash the beer to clear it, but you really wouldn't want to keep it around long enough to the point that off flavors will develop anyway. I (and all the people that come over and help me) usually push through an IPA, bitter, or pale ale within 3 weeks to a month. My point is: If the exclusion of O2 is an exercise in methodical perfection, to each his own, brew on! But in reality, I really don't think the O2 volume introduced at crashing a 5 gallon fermentor would introduce enough O2 to stale your beer in the period of time most homebrewers blow through a 5 gallon batch. That's been my experience, but I don't bottle, so maybe you have something there.

Cold crashing suck back will definitely provide enough O2 to cause perceptible oxidation. Let's say your fermentation finished at 68˚F (20˚C, 293.15˚K.) You then cold crash to 32˚F (0˚C, 273.15˚K.) When fermentation completed, your fermenter headspace contained 100% CO2 at 14.695 psia (1 atmosphere). Using the ideal gas law (PV = nRT or P/T = nR/V), nR/V is a constant for the headspace, so P1/T1 = P2/T2, and P2 = P1*T2/T1. Thus:
CO2 partial pressure after cold crash = 14.695 psia * 273.15˚K / 293.15˚K = 13.692 psia, and
O2 partial pressure = (14.695 psia - 13.692 psia) * 0.21 = 0.21 psia​
After cold crashing, O2 will make up:
0.21 psia / 14.695 psia = 0.0143 => 1.43% or 14,300 ppm​
of the headspace. Assuming the headspace volume is 1 gal and the fermenter volume is 6.5 gal, the O2 concentration averaged over the fermenter volume (equivalent to TPO) is:
14,300 ppm * 1 gal / 6.5 gal = 2200 ppm​
Recall that from http://www.craftbrewersconference.com/wp-content/uploads/2015_presentations/F1540_Darron_Welch.pdf (page 21), 0.15 ppm TPO is enough to cause noticeable oxidation in an IPA after 3 weeks of 68˚F storage. The cold crashed TPO is way over the limit.

So, what's preventing a cardboard nightmare? The answer is time. Even though the O2 concentration is enough to cause massive oxidation, it takes time for the O2 to diffuse into the beer, and after that it takes time for the beer to oxidize. (If you shook up the fermenter after cold crashing, the O2 would get into the beer much faster, but then only a fool would do that.) Since cold crash periods are usually short, and you get the beer into the keg in a few days, damage is limited.

If after kegging, your TPO is over the 0.15 ppm limit, time is still on your side, if you keep the beer cold. For most organic chemistry reactions, the rate of reaction is reduced about 2X for every 10˚C (18˚F) drop in temperature. If you store your keg at 40˚F instead of 68˚F, then the time to oxidize noticeably would be:
3 weeks * 2 ^ ((68˚F - 40˚F)/18˚F) = 8.8 weeks​
So, the faster you drink and the colder you store, the less you need to worry about it. YMMV
Brew on :mug:
 
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