Cold Crashing / Mylar Balloon

[CodeSection]

I tried reading EJ Beverage and EJ Medical tubing selection comparison. Unfortunately, it doesn't describe what their scale is based on other than "10" is the best.

Maybe I should go back and read the LODO sub threads, but are people also replacing their tubing on the hot side as well? I can see maybe when transferring the wort to the fermenter, but then again, you are oxygenating the wort anyway after pitching the yeast so that doesn't make sense to me.

In another thread, I read that some are even milling their grain so it is not as fine to reduce oxygen exposure. So maybe they have replaced their tubing on the hot side...all new to me.

 

[day_trippr]

Yes, some uber-LODO practitioners have indeed found low-O2 permeable tubing for their hot side applications (those that aren't already hard-piped)...

Cheers!

 

[501irishred]

I quit facebook 4 years ago. Best thing I ever did!

I keep an account for the sole purpose of screwing with the tons of people who wish happy birthday (to anybody and everyone). I log in (usually have to send off for new password again) about a month before my next birthday to thank everyone. I drives them crazy! I’ve seen where people (friends?) have continued to comment on the tardiness of reply damn near till it’s time to reply again.

 

[RPh_Guy]

are people also replacing their tubing on the hot side as well?

As I mentioned for one of your options, I'm wrapping my silicone tubing with PTFE ... I'm building a RIMS and also recirc through a CFC, so my wort is exposed to the tubing during transfers, throughout the mash, the latter part of the boil, and during chilling.
I got the idea from @Bilsch
Cheers

 

[CodeSection]

As I mentioned for one of your options, I'm wrapping my silicone tubing with PTFE ... I'm building a RIMS and also recirc through a CFC, so my wort is exposed to the tubing during transfers, throughout the mash, the latter part of the boil, and during chilling.
I got the idea from @Bilsch
Cheers

Exactly my process too. I cross circulate between the BK and the MT while mashing. During chilling, I cool though a CFC using ground water, then depending upon the time of the year, use an ice bath for the last 10-15 degrees.

If I understand correctly and ignoring the bulk sale on the link below, you are using adhesive PTFE tape like what is being sold at https://www.uline.com/Product/Detai...oated-Tapes/3M-5180-PTFE-Film-Tape-1-x-36-yds.

It says it conforms to irregular surfaces and is rated up to 500F. So, will it hold up or will it start to come off when you start cleaning your hoses? What about the affect of StarSan on the tape on the cold side transfer hose or blow off tubing?

I only use roughly 32' of tubing. Depending on your insight on how the tape holds up, it might be less hassle, less work and less time consuming to just buy 32' of PTFE tubing....

 

[RPh_Guy]

Exactly my process too. I cross circulate between the BK and the MT while mashing. During chilling, I cool though a CFC using ground water, then depending upon the time of the year, use an ice bath for the last 10-15 degrees.

If I understand correctly and ignoring the bulk sale on the link below, you are using adhesive PTFE tape like what is being sold at https://www.uline.com/Product/Detai...oated-Tapes/3M-5180-PTFE-Film-Tape-1-x-36-yds.

It says it conforms to irregular surfaces and is rated up to 500F. So, will it hold up or will it start to come off when you start cleaning your hoses? What about the affect of StarSan on the tape on the cold side transfer hose or blow off tubing?

I only use roughly 32' of tubing. Depending on your insight on how the tape holds up, it might be less hassle, less work and less time consuming to just buy 32' of PTFE tubing....

Yeah, I bought it here: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000REJN48/

I don't have experience with it yet. There's discussion on this thread:
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/threads/broken-mash-tun.667424/#post-8623900

 

[CodeSection]

Haha. I just finished reading that thread before I saw your response. Have you used the tape yet? If so, do you have pictures? I'm still leaning toward just buying new tubing....

Thanks for your help!

 

[RPh_Guy]

It's definitely cheaper and easier to just buy a new tubing if it's for cold side use.

It's only worth reducing O2-permeability of your tubing on the hot side if you're doing low-oxygen brewing.

 

[sicktght311]

No Matter what i did, i couldnt get a balloon to work as well as i was hoping. So i ended up picking up a 20oz paintball tank from my sporting good store, a mini co2 regulator off amazon, and now i just hook that up to my airlock when its time to cold crash. I put about 1.5-2psi on, and leave it during the cold crash. Then when i'm ready to transfer to my keg, i can do a fully closed co2 transfer. Works great so far

 

[CodeSection]

No Matter what i did, i couldnt get a balloon to work as well as i was hoping. So i ended up picking up a 20oz paintball tank from my sporting good store, a mini co2 regulator off amazon, and now i just hook that up to my airlock when its time to cold crash. I put about 1.5-2psi on, and leave it during the cold crash. Then when i'm ready to transfer to my keg, i can do a fully closed co2 transfer. Works great so far

My Mylar balloon has been working so far....though, only the second time using. Can you provide links and perhaps pictures of your set-up?

 

[Bilsch]

If I understand correctly and ignoring the bulk sale on the link below, you are using adhesive PTFE tape like what is being sold at https://www.uline.com/Product/Detai...oated-Tapes/3M-5180-PTFE-Film-Tape-1-x-36-yds.

It says it conforms to irregular surfaces and is rated up to 500F. So, will it hold up or will it start to come off when you start cleaning your hoses? What about the affect of StarSan on the tape on the cold side transfer hose or blow off tubing?

So far my ptfe tape wrapped silicone hoses have held up well for 9 months with bi weekly use. I think it should be plenty durable for at least a couple of years.

 

[CodeSection]

So far my ptfe tape wrapped silicone hoses have held up well for 9 months with bi weekly use. I think it should be plenty durable for at least a couple of years.

Good to hear...thanks for posting!

 

[CodeSection]

I can't recommend anything from EJ Beverage as their proprietary tubing has so little publically available data and what IS available suggests it's only incrementally better than solid PVC tubing wrt oxygen permeability.

PET is the way to go for the O2 adverse...

Cheers!

You are so right! I called EJ Beverage Wednesday morning and told them I wanted info on their Brew High Temp tubing regarding O2 permeability and why. They assured me they would get back to me the very same day...yesterday. When I had not received an email or phone call by the end of business day as I was told I would, I called MoreBeer since they are opened late and told them what I was trying to find out and ask that they help since they may have more influence.....crickets on both.

What a shame...it wasn't as if I wanted their proprietary formula. I just wanted real data that supported their claim "superior barrier properties".

 

[kevink]

The EJ Beverage Ultra Barrier Silver tubing that I use in my keezer sucks. It does not live up the the hype. It stained immediately and I think it's giving off-flavors. Any beer left in the tubing gets extremely oxidized in less than 24 hours. I have no idea if this differs from what was linked to above, but it's probably very similar crap.

 

[CodeSection]

The EJ Beverage Ultra Barrier Silver tubing that I use in my keezer sucks. It does not live up the the hype. It stained immediately and I think it's giving off-flavors. Any beer left in the tubing gets extremely oxidized in less than 24 hours. I have no idea if this differs from what was linked to above, but it's probably very similar crap.

It appears some of the wording is similar as can bee seen below from their brochure.

Beverage Ultra Barrier Silver™ Tubing - Effective Against BacteriaEJ Beverage Ultra Barrier Silver™ antimicrobial beverage tubing has been proven to be up to 100% effective against the top 4 beverage spoiling bacteria up to 2,000 liters flow. The tubing is lined with a special compound that includes silver, which is recognized for its antimicrobial properties. Because of the potential for biofilm buildup within dispensing and transfer lines, this tubing is ideal for food and beverage applications where bacteria can thrive.

- Antimicrobial silver lining
- 100% PVC FREE Ultra flexibility
- Clear Tubing
- Superior barrier properties

 

[CodeSection]

OK, so EJ Beverage is out. What other company offers low O2 permeability tubing (with supporting data) that is rated up to 275F? Please provide a link if possible...

 

[RPh_Guy]

Yeah if you want hot-side low-oxygen tubing, wrapping silicone with Teflon seems like a good option.

Or straight Teflon, which gets expensive real quick. https://www.usplastic.com/catalog/item.aspx?itemid=23540&catid=840

But again, unless you're eliminating other sources of oxygen, the permeability of tubing is negligible on the hot side.

 

[CodeSection]

^^^^Ouch! $15.53 per foot, no thank you. Maybe the tape is not so bad after all....

Interesting that they sell EJ Beverage at their link https://www.usplastic.com/catalog/item.aspx?itemid=115699. Under the product description it varies slightly than what is on EJ Beverage brochure. At the link it says:

EJ Beverage High Temp™ Tubing
EJ Beverage High Temp™ tubing is constructed of TPE (Thermoplastic Elastomer) which is an excellent alternative to high temperature PVC and silicone.

• PVC, DEHP, BPA & plasticizer free
• Environmentally friendly production, does not emit dioxins
• Has no significant impact on taste or flavor
• Tubing offers extremely low extractables/leachables
• Highly flexible & remains flexible at low temperatures
• Ultra-low permeability & superior barrier properties
• Temperature range: -40°F to 275°F

 

[CodeSection]

@RPh_Guy and @Bilsch, I bought the tape but have not used it yet. I was planning on taping this weekend.

In the meantime, two weeks ago I reached out to MoreBeer and asked them for help in getting a response from EJ Beverage (Eldon James) regarding the oxygen permeability on their High Temp PVC Free Tubing since EJ had not gotten back to me as promised. I assured both EJ and MB that I wasn't trying to figure out any proprietary formula.

Well, today I received the attached Gas Permeability Test from Eldon James. Can anyone help decipher the results?

 

[RPh_Guy]

I wrapped my hot-side hoses just like @Bilsch suggested.

Can anyone help decipher the results?

No idea, sorry.
Maybe see if they can send an English translation?

 

[Vale71]

Well, today I received the attached Gas Permeability Test from Eldon James. Can anyone help decipher the results?

This is the number you want to look at:

1.22167E-12

This tells you that a 1 centimeter thick membrane of this material will let through 1.22167E-12 cubic centimeters of O2 for every square centimeter of surface, for every Pascal of pressure differential and for every second of exposure.
Let's first translate this into mass units. One cubic centimeter of O2 weighs 0.001429 grams. So:

1.22167E-12 * 0.001429 = 1.74576643‬E-15

Let's now pick a particular size tube and translate this into permeability per linear meter. Let's do this for the 7mm ID tube. What we need is actually the OD as the surface that will be exposed to O2 is the outside surface. According to their spec sheet OD is 12mm or 1.2 cm. This gives us a surface per linear meter of:

3.1414 * 1.2 * 100 = 376.968 (square centimeters)

We now multiply our permeability coefficient times the surface divided by the wall thickness which is 2.5mm or 0.025cm per the spec sheet:

1.74576643‬E-15 * 376.968 / 0.025 = 2.63239231833696E-11 (grams of O2 per second per Pascal)

Since the tubing will be exposed to atmospheric oxygen we have to multiply by the partial pressure of O2 in the atmosphere. 1 atm = 101300 Pascal, assuming 21% O2 we have:

101300 * 0.21 = 21273 Pa

So the permeation rate when exposed to atmospheric O2 will be:

2.63239231833696E-11 * 21273 = 5.599888178798215008E-07 (grams per second per linear meter of hose)

This doesn't seem like much but if the exposure is long enough it builds up considerably. One hour equals 3600 seconds, so the rate for one hour will be:

5.599888178798215008E-07 * 3600 = 2.01595974436735740288E-03

We're already up to a little more than 2 milligrams per hour per linear meter of 7mm ID hose. If you consider the daily rate (only relevant cold side, I know):

2.01595974436735740288E-03 * 24 = 4.838303386481657766912‬E-02

We're already up to about 50mg of O2 per day per linear meter. And that's a low permeability material, with silicone hose it would look way much worse...

 

[Vale71]

Two things you can take away from this:

- plastic tubing is kaka when it comes to preventing O2 ingress, even the best one
- if you really have to use plastic tubing, pick the smallest diameter with the thickest wall and try to keep it as short as technically possible

 

[501irishred]

Two things you can take away from this:

- plastic tubing is kaka when it comes to preventing O2 ingress, even the best one
- if you really have to use plastic tubing, pick the smallest diameter with the thickest wall and try to keep it as short as technically possible

A third thing is you have one hell of a calculator! Pretty sure mine would physically laugh at me halfway through any of those equations!

 

[Vale71]

A third thing is you have one hell of a calculator! Pretty sure mine would physically laugh at me halfway through any of those equations!

I actually used Windows' calculator app. It's not the size but how you use it...

 

[Tobor_8thMan]

How much CO2, generally speaking, is being produced in a cold crash environment? I'd think with an ale yeast the yeast are basically dormant.

Probably lager yeast are still somewhat active in a cold crash environment.

 

[Vale71]

That is correct. I see some CO2 escaping from the spunding valve for a few days into lagering but I definitely don't see any in ales once they're cooled to below 10°C or so.

It also depends on how long you wait to drop temperature. If you wait several weeks there won't be any fermentables left so lager or ale it won't matter as the yeast will have nothing to ferment in either case.

 

[CodeSection]

This is the number you want to look at:

1.22167E-12

This tells you that a 1 centimeter thick membrane of this material will let through 1.22167E-12 cubic centimeters of O2 for every square centimeter of surface, for every Pascal of pressure differential and for every second of exposure.
Let's first translate this into mass units. One cubic centimeter of O2 weighs 0.1429 grams. So:

1.22167E-12 * 0.1429 = 1.74576643‬E-13

Let's now pick a particular size tube and translate this into permeability per linear meter. Let's do this for the 7mm ID tube. What we need is actually the OD as the surface that will be exposed to O2 is the outside surface. According to their spec sheet OD is 12mm or 1.2 cm. This gives us a surface per linear meter of:

3.1414 * 1.2 * 100 = 376.968 (square centimeters)

We now multiply our permeability coefficient times the surface divided by the wall thickness which is 2.5mm or 0.025cm per the spec sheet:

1.74576643‬E-13 * 376.968 / 0.025 = 2.63239231833696E-09 (grams of O2 per second per Pascal)

Since the tubing will be exposed to atmospheric oxygen we have to multiply by the partial pressure of O2 in the atmosphere. 1 atm = 101300 Pascal, assuming 21% O2 we have:

101300 * 0.21 = 21273 Pa

So the permeation rate when exposed to atmospheric O2 will be:

2.63239231833696E-09 * 21273 = 5.599888178798215008E-05 (grams per second per linear meter of hose)

This doesn't seem like much but if the exposure is long enough it builds up considerably. One hour equals 3600 seconds, so the rate for one hour will be:

5.599888178798215008E-05 * 3600 = 2.01595974436735740288E-01

We're already up to a little more than 200 milligrams per hour per linear meter of 7mm ID hose. If you consider the daily rate (only relevant cold side, I know):

2.01595974436735740288E-01 * 24 = 4.838303386481657766912‬

We're already up to about 5g of O2 per day per linear meter. And that's a low permeability material, with silicone hose it would look way much worse...

Wow, @Vale71! Thank you so, so much! I appreciate the amount of time you took to explain step by step and educate on what those numbers meant!

Thanks to your work, it is obvious this product will not do what the marketing material suggests it will. I will save my money and just use the tape I bought to wrap my hoses.

 

[Vale71]

I will save my money and just use the tape I bought to wrap my hoses.

Now that is a waste of time and money... May I suggest aquiring actual PTFE hoses instead?
And I wouldn't be so harsh on EJ. That hose is meant for serving beverages, where the beverages won't be standing in the line for days or weeks, and I'm sure it's more than adequate for that purpose.

 

[CodeSection]

Now that is a waste of time and money... May I suggest aquiring actual PTFE hoses instead?
And I wouldn't be so harsh on EJ. That hose is meant for serving beverages, where the beverages won't be standing in the line for days or weeks, and I'm sure it's more than adequate for that purpose.

Something like this? https://fluorostore.com/products/fractional-metric-ptfe-fluoropolymer-tubing?variant=456521733

 

[Vale71]

Exactly. Get the thickest wall available for your ID.
It doesn't appear to be food grade but that's irrelevant since you won't be transfering either beer or wort through it.
BTW with your kind of setup you're really missing out on a lot of advantages not spunding and not doing closed transfers under pressure, but that decision if yours to make obviously.