Closed transfer with floating dip tube?

[HopsAreGood]

For those of you that have a clear beer draft system, or another similar floating dip tube, I’m wondering if you can do closed transfers from the fermenter into a keg through the liquid post.

Typically I’ve done this with a traditional dip tube that goes down to the bottom of the keg, but I’m wondering if there would be any issues or problems doing it with a floating one.

Thanks

 

[Robert65]

Yes you can.

The only issue is that, just as if you have shortened liquid tubes, when you purge, you won't necessarily get all the sanitizer out of the keg through the floating dip tube. The solution is the same as with shortened tubes; trim the gas tube flush with the inside of the keg, invert the pressurized keg, and blow the remaining sanitizer out through the gas post.

 

[brewbama]

I use the Clear Beer system and close transfer. It works like a charm. I also trimmed my gas tube as Robert described.

 

[Vale71]

The only issue I see is that beer will be more exposed to any residual oxygen in the keg. The advantage of having a dip tube is that you transfer the beer below the surface (except for the first few seconds of course) which further minimizes oxygen pickup. The worst thing of course would be to use the gas post which would have beer raining into the keg with maximal oxygen exposure, so I would say that using the liquid post is still the lesser of two evils even with a clear draft system. Whether this will have any effect on beer quality is of course entirely dependent on how well you purge the receiving vessel of O2 so as always YMMV.

 

[HopsAreGood]

The only issue I see is that beer will be more exposed to any residual oxygen in the keg. The advantage of having a dip tube is that you transfer the beer below the surface (except for the first few seconds of course) which further minimizes oxygen pickup. The worst thing of course would be to use the gas post which would have beer raining into the keg with maximal oxygen exposure, so I would say that using the liquid post is still the lesser of two evils even with a clear draft system. Whether this will have any effect on beer quality is of course entirely dependent on how well you purge the receiving vessel of O2 so as always YMMV.

This is one of the main concerns I had. That the beer entering the keg might splash, rather than gently fill from underneath the traditional dip tube. That being said I rig up my fermenter to pass all of the created Co2 through the keg prior to filling it. So I’m pretty confident it is extremely well purged before the beer enters it.

 

[Cavpilot2000]

I do it all the time using the Clear Beer. You transfer into the normal beer out post, not the gas post. Just like the floating dip tube draws out from below the surface of the beer, it will also transfer in below the surface of the beer.

And a hint I just started doing for removing the residual sanitizer is inverting the keg and instead of blowing out the gas tube, pull the PRV and blow it out of there, since the PRV is really at the lowest point in the keg when it's inverted. Works quite well.

 

[Cavpilot2000]

This is one of the main concerns I had. That the beer entering the keg might splash, rather than gently fill from underneath the traditional dip tube. That being said I rig up my fermenter to pass all of the created Co2 through the keg prior to filling it. So I’m pretty confident it is extremely well purged before the beer enters it.

No, you're not (or shouldn't be) transferring your beer through the gas-in post. You're pushing it through the floating dip tube, which is resting on the bottom of the keg and very shortly the "hole" becomes submerged and acts like a traditional dip tube for closed transfer.

 

[HopsAreGood]

No, you're not (or shouldn't be) transferring your beer through the gas-in post. You're pushing it through the floating dip tube, which is resting on the bottom of the keg and very shortly the "hole" becomes submerged and acts like a traditional dip tube for closed transfer.

I’m not transferring through the gas in post at all...I apologize if it sounded like I was doing that. I always transfer in via the liquid side, I’ve just never used a floating dip tube before. It’s great to hear that it works well though, and does not splash while filling.

 

[whovous]

I do it all the time using the Clear Beer. You transfer into the normal beer out post, not the gas post. Just like the floating dip tube draws out from below the surface of the beer, it will also transfer in below the surface of the beer.

And a hint I just started doing for removing the residual sanitizer is inverting the keg and instead of blowing out the gas tube, pull the PRV and blow it out of there, since the PRV is really at the lowest point in the keg when it's inverted. Works quite well.

Oh, I really like this idea.

 

[whovous]

No, you're not (or shouldn't be) transferring your beer through the gas-in post. You're pushing it through the floating dip tube, which is resting on the bottom of the keg and very shortly the "hole" becomes submerged and acts like a traditional dip tube for closed transfer.

Is the risk of clogging any higher through the flexible tube?

 

[HopsAreGood]

I also don’t do the whole fill with sanitizer first and push out. I put my dry hops into the keg prior to transferring so even if I wanted to push out a keg full of sanitizer I wouldn’t be able to. Although I fully understand the merits of doing so.

I’ve read it takes 16 full purge cycles to 30psi to fully eliminate ALL oxygen inside a keg. So what I do is purge the keg a few times, maybe 3-4, then connect some tubing from my fermenter to a QD to the liquid in on the keg. I then have a QD on the gas post that runs down into a bucket of sanitizer. So this way all of the co2 created during fermentation serves to purge the keg. It’s like a giant airlock.

I can’t really quantify how much co2 is created, but I’ve been told it’s definitely more than 16 30psi purges.

 

[str1p3s]

excellent breakdown of how much co2 is created here:

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/threads/keg-purging-with-active-fermentation.628658/

 

[Cavpilot2000]

Is the risk of clogging any higher through the flexible tube?

No. If yo're going to get clogging anywhere (I assume you mean with hops), it's going to be at the post poppit.

 

[Cavpilot2000]

I also don’t do the whole fill with sanitizer first and push out. I put my dry hops into the keg prior to transferring so even if I wanted to push out a keg full of sanitizer I wouldn’t be able to. Although I fully understand the merits of doing so.

I’ve read it takes 16 full purge cycles to 30psi to fully eliminate ALL oxygen inside a keg. So what I do is purge the keg a few times, maybe 3-4, then connect some tubing from my fermenter to a QD to the liquid in on the keg. I then have a QD on the gas post that runs down into a bucket of sanitizer. So this way all of the co2 created during fermentation serves to purge the keg. It’s like a giant airlock.

I can’t really quantify how much co2 is created, but I’ve been told it’s definitely more than 16 30psi purges.

Yes, that's a great method of purging (fermentation).

 

[eric19312]

Is the risk of clogging any higher through the flexible tube?

I don't think the risk of clogging is any worse but be aware the consequences of clogging can be much worse. With regular dip tube you can remove the post, poppet, tube and connector and clean them out with minimal oxygen exposure. If anything gets past your poppet and clogs the inlet of the clear beer system you are going need to open the keg to fix it.

Since I've gotten my clogging issues worked out I've had no difficulty with closed transfers using the clear beer system.

 

[Brooothru]

This is one of the main concerns I had. That the beer entering the keg might splash, rather than gently fill from underneath the traditional dip tube. That being said I rig up my fermenter to pass all of the created Co2 through the keg prior to filling it. So I’m pretty confident it is extremely well purged before the beer enters it.

You could partially fill the receiving keg with a gallon of boiled (de-oxygenated) water dosed with 10 grams or so of NaMeta or KMeta. Swirl the solution around the closed keg and let it off-gas for 20-30 mins. Then purge the keg with CO2 and drain any sulfite solution through the shortened gas dip tube. In theory all the O2 (including the fractional amount contained in the bottled CO2) should be absorbed and sequestered in the sulfite solution.

Brooo Brother

 

[Cavpilot2000]

There really is no place for clogging to occur in the Clear Beer system unless you got a kink in the hose, which would stop flow anyway. The diameter of both the hose and the opening on the bottom of the float device are as large or larger than a dip tube, respectively.

 

[eric19312]

There really is no place for clogging to occur in the Clear Beer system unless you got a kink in the hose, which would stop flow anyway. The diameter of both the hose and the opening on the bottom of the float device are as large or larger than a dip tube, respectively.

I clogged mine doing a closed transfer with the screen in place. I may have resorted to taking out the poppet and pin during the transfer.

 

[Robert65]

And a hint I just started doing for removing the residual sanitizer is inverting the keg and instead of blowing out the gas tube, pull the PRV and blow it out of there, since the PRV is really at the lowest point in the keg when it's inverted. Works quite well.

The PRV is in fact not at the lowest point. Internally, it stands proud of the keg lid (in any keg I have ever seen at least.) Therefore, this method will leave behind as much sanitizer as pools in the concave keg lid. The only way to evacuate all the sanitizer in such a case is to have the gas post trimmed so it is slightly recessed from the inner surface. Then with the keg inverted and at a slight angle, the drainage point (gas post) is really the lowest point in the keg. (There is no reason to have a longer gas post anyway; its only purpose in life, once the keg has left the soda industry and moved on to homebrewing, is to hold the little o-ring in place.)

 

[Cavpilot2000]

The PRV is in fact not at the lowest point. Internally, it stands proud of the keg lid (in any keg I have ever seen at least.) Therefore, this method will leave behind as much sanitizer as pools in the concave keg lid. The only way to evacuate all the sanitizer in such a case is to have the gas post trimmed so it is slightly recessed from the inner surface. Then with the keg inverted and at a slight angle, the drainage point (gas post) is really the lowest point in the keg. (There is no reason to have a longer gas post anyway; its only purpose in life, once the keg has left the soda industry and moved on to homebrewing, is to hold the little o-ring in place.)

Ah, good point, it does stand out about 1/4", but I have good result with this method. Some of my gas in tubes are cut flush, some aren't, so it works better with the ones that aren't. I suppose I should go ahead and cut the rest and not be lazy about it, but I just haven't gotten around to it.

 

[Cavpilot2000]

I clogged mine doing a closed transfer with the screen in place. I may have resorted to taking out the poppet and pin during the transfer.

The clog occurred at the screen on the receiving keg? So you had hops matter get all the way through two ball locks to the pickup screen?

Or were you using one in the transferring keg too and that's the one that clogged?

 

[eric19312]

I was transferring from fermentor to keg. Lot of dry hops. Finally Clogged in the clear beer tube.

 

[Vale71]

I do it all the time using the Clear Beer. You transfer into the normal beer out post, not the gas post. Just like the floating dip tube draws out from below the surface of the beer, it will also transfer in below the surface of the beer.

How deep is the beer outlet/inlet? I'm asking because I've never seen such a system up close.
If it's only a few millimiters deep then it will certainly cause turbulence all the way to the surface which will increase residual oxygen uptake, of course it won't be as bad as having the beer splash around in the keg.

 

[Robert65]

If it's only a few millimiters deep then it will certainly cause turbulence all the way to the surface which will increase residual oxygen uptake...

In a properly purged keg, the residual oxygen available for uptake is dependent on the purity of your bottled CO2, so this can be a non-issue. Further, my reason for using a floating dip tube is so that I can transfer the beer for spunding in the keg without worrying about the extra yeast sediment this will create, so that yeast will scavenge any residual oxygen.

 

[Cavpilot2000]

How deep is the beer outlet/inlet? I'm asking because I've never seen such a system up close.
If it's only a few millimiters deep then it will certainly cause turbulence all the way to the surface which will increase residual oxygen uptake, of course it won't be as bad as having the beer splash around in the keg.

The inlet/pickup is on a swivel hung under the float. At "full sail" (i.e. floating freely), the pickup hole is probably about an inch to an inch and a half beneath the surface.

 

[eric19312]

How deep is the beer outlet/inlet? I'm asking because I've never seen such a system up close.
If it's only a few millimiters deep then it will certainly cause turbulence all the way to the surface which will increase residual oxygen uptake, of course it won't be as bad as having the beer splash around in the keg.

Here is a photo of my clear beer floating in water. It's about two inches deep to the opening. I imagine this will lead to some increased turbulence at the surface of the beer while the keg is filling vs filling from the bottom up.

 

[govner1]

Yes you can.

The only issue is that, just as if you have shortened liquid tubes, when you purge, you won't necessarily get all the sanitizer out of the keg through the floating dip tube. The solution is the same as with shortened tubes; trim the gas tube flush with the inside of the keg, invert the pressurized keg, and blow the remaining sanitizer out through the gas post.

^^^^This. I do itallthe time. The Clear Beer is in 10 of my 13 kegs.
Never had an issue.

 

[Alex4mula]

Here is a photo of my clear beer floating in water. It's about two inches deep to the opening. I imagine this will lead to some increased turbulence at the surface of the beer while the keg is filling vs filling from the bottom up.

View attachment 645876

2” because it is floating. At star it will be close to bottom. No?

 

[Cavpilot2000]

2” because it is floating. At star it will be close to bottom. No?

Yes. THe float device with the pickup rests on the bottom.

 

[Unicorn_Platypus]

I also don’t do the whole fill with sanitizer first and push out. I put my dry hops into the keg prior to transferring so even if I wanted to push out a keg full of sanitizer I wouldn’t be able to. Although I fully understand the merits of doing so.

I’ve read it takes 16 full purge cycles to 30psi to fully eliminate ALL oxygen inside a keg. So what I do is purge the keg a few times, maybe 3-4, then connect some tubing from my fermenter to a QD to the liquid in on the keg. I then have a QD on the gas post that runs down into a bucket of sanitizer. So this way all of the co2 created during fermentation serves to purge the keg. It’s like a giant airlock.

I can’t really quantify how much co2 is created, but I’ve been told it’s definitely more than 16 30psi purges.

I dry hop in the keg with the cbds.

I do a full purge with sanitizer first before adding the dry hops. Add them quickly and immediately reseal lid. Then I do 5 purges at 40 PSI after sealing it back up. Also purge the headspace 5 times. No oxidation issues on my side and the beers stay hoppy for months upon serving.

I know I'm not getting all the O2 out, but think it's pretty low exposure with this method. Also uses a lot of CO2, but doesn't bother me

 

[kitr]

Has anyone considered using a carbonation lid with the clear beer attached to the lid's post? You could fill using the standard dip tube and even have a screen on the clear beer attachment?

 

[marc1]

Has anyone considered using a carbonation lid with the clear beer attached to the lid's post? You could fill using the standard dip tube and even have a screen on the clear beer attachment?

I use a CBDS on the fermenter and serving keg and see no benefit from an additional dip tube. My serving kegs are purged with fermentation gas and I closed transfer into them.

I don't really even understand the issue trying to be addressed with it. If your receiving keg has lots of O2 in it, that's your problem, not the perceived turbulence (?) created by the CBDS. I don't get how a slow fill through a CBDS is somehow worse than a dip tube.

Maybe people don't understand how the CBDS works?

 

[kitr]

My thought process was being able to fill the keg via the liquid dip tube straight from the Fermentor and then serve out of the other one with the screen...... I like the idea of the screen but ive heard you cant fill via the screen on the clear beer attachment?

 

[marc1]

My thought process was being able to fill the keg via the liquid dip tube straight from the Fermentor and then serve out of the other one with the screen...... I like the idea of the screen but ive heard you cant fill via the screen on the clear beer attachment?

Works fine for me with the screen on both.

If something gets through the screen on the fermenter it's too small to clog the screen on the keg.

I could see the fermenter one maybe having problems in some cases, especially if you don't cold crash. I usually see some yeast sludge on the fermenter screen, but it has never stopped a transfer.

 

[cheesebach]

Works fine for me with the screen on both.

If something gets through the screen on the fermenter it's too small to clog the screen on the keg.

I could see the fermenter one maybe having problems in some cases, especially if you don't cold crash. I usually see some yeast sludge on the fermenter screen, but it has never stopped a transfer.

That's good to know - so in your fermenter you're using the add-on stainless screen that CBDS sells? And have you tried this with an IPA with a good amount of dry hops (after cold crash)? Or do you not dry-hop in the primary? Do you typically do a closed transfer using gravity, or do you push the beer out using CO2?

 

[marc1]

That's good to know - so in your fermenter you're using the add-on stainless screen that CBDS sells? And have you tried this with an IPA with a good amount of dry hops (after cold crash)? Or do you not dry-hop in the primary? Do you typically do a closed transfer using gravity, or do you push the beer out using CO2?

Yes it's the add on screen.
I've used it with heavily dry hopped ipas. I always cold crash before transfer. I use low pressure CO2 to transfer, although it works out that the keg is slightly below the fermenter. This way I don't move a heavy full fermenter, which is also good for keeping the settled stuff at the bottom.