Cloning an Obscure Beer (Kozel Cerny)

[LeverTime]

Last year I spent six months living in Prague, and one of the things I took away from the experience was a new favorite session beer: Kozel Cerny*. This beer seems to be impossible to find outside of the Czech Republic, I think they do not distribute it internationally at all. I would like to make something similar, but I'm not sure how to approach it.

According to what I've found online, it's a Munich dunkel lager. I looked up other beers in this category on beeradvocate.com, and the only one I've been able to find near me is Negra Modelo. I bought some to compare, but I think it is very different. The NM has a heavier body and a lighter color. I actually think Guiness is closer to Kozel, although Kozel is sweeter and has a lighter body. And both Guiness and NM have more alcohol: Kozel is only 3.5%.

I have never made up a recipe before. Any suggestions on where to start? Has anyone else had this beer before? Should I just start brewing something of the same style such as this, and make adjustments based on what I think is different?

* It is spelled "Kozel Černý" in Czech, but I thought the letters may not display in some people's browsers.

 

[CBMbrewer]

Go for it dude! just stick to the style and do some research and i think you'll have it.
but I have no advice for you on this particular beer accept that you should use a lager yeast that has very low flucullatuon so you'll end up with the 3.5% that your looking for. that and other factors of course.

 

[rockfish42]

Negra Modelo is actually more of a Vienna Lager, you might be able to find Spaten Dunkel it's at least available on the west coast.

 

[dmckean44]

I would start with something like 97% dark munich, 3% chocolate and 18 IBUs and adjust from there. Mash low

 

[zgoda]

Velkopopovicky Kozel Cerny is a Czech schwarzbier. AFAIK made exclusively of pilsner and dehusked black malt (like Weyermann's carafa III special).

 

[dmckean44]

That makes sense, especially since he compared it to Guiness.

 

[pjj2ba]

Velkopopovicky Kozel Cerny is a Czech schwarzbier. AFAIK made exclusively of pilsner and dehusked black malt (like Weyermann's carafa III special).

This could work, but would take a step mash of some sort to get both lightness and sweetness. I'd mash at say 148 F and then 158 -160 F. The time will vary depending on your system. On my set up, I would start with a 15 min protein rest at 122, then a 10 min ramp to 148, and hold for 15 min, then ramp (10 min) to 158 and hold for 25 min. (if I reverse the rest times, I get a nice thin crisp beer)

The trick is to get the sweetness with a light body. The mash schedule above will tend to give a pretty full bodied beer, but I think if you used a highly attenuating yeast hopefully it would thin it out enough but leave it tasting a little sweet. You might try boiling the first runnings alone to try and get some extra kettle caramelization. The easier method would be to add some crystal malt to the recipe

 

[titanicrip]

I too have been looking for a Kozel Cerny recipe. I am new to brewing but Kozel is my favorite. It is available in other Countries. I bought it in St. Petersburg, Russia. I have been to Prague several times and it is great. The closest beer I have found is Spaten Optimator. Try it.

 

[LeverTime]

I too have been looking for a Kozel Cerny recipe. I am new to brewing but Kozel is my favorite. It is available in other Countries. I bought it in St. Petersburg, Russia. I have been to Prague several times and it is great. The closest beer I have found is Spaten Optimator. Try it.

I haven't had Spaten Optimator before, I'll look for that the next time I'm at the store.

Thanks to everyone for the advice. I am moving around March or April, so I am waiting until then to start this. Based on what zgoda's post, it would make sense start with a Schwarzbier recipe, but just use pilsner and dehusked black malt. I'll post the recipe before I start it, and report on my progress.

 

[LeverTime]

A quick update in case anyone googles this thread later. I tried Spaten Optimator, and I thought it was still pretty different from Kozel. Perhaps the alcohol gives it a bit more of a burn? I also tried the Spaten Dunkel, and thought that was a bit closer to matching Kozel.

Just my $0.02. I wasn't able to do a side-by-side comparison with Kozel, so maybe my memory is faulty.

 

[Scooby_Brew]

I never tried Kozel Cerny (I think), but I know in Czech language it means "Bock Black Beer". "Cerny" could also refer to a little known Czech style of Bock Lager that uses Czech hops and Czech lager yeast. This style is also known as Tmave. If I where you I would try to find a recipe for a Tmave or brew a Bock Lager using Czech lager yeast and Saaz hops.

 

[rockfish42]

This might be closer now that I know it's a Tmave
http://www.northernbrewer.com/documentation/allgrain/AG-Tmave.pdf

 

[LeverTime]

I never tried Kozel Cerny (I think), but I know in Czech language it means "Bock Black Beer". "Cerny" could also refer to a little known Czech style of Bock Lager that uses Czech hops and Czech lager yeast. This style is also known as Tmave. If I where you I would try to find a recipe for a Tmave or brew a Bock Lager using Czech lager yeast and Saaz hops.

That's interesting. According to RateBeer.com, "Kozel Tmave Lezak" is an alias for Kozel Cerny, so what you said makes sense.

Other than a few simple phrases I do not speak Czech, but I thought "Velkopopovicky" was the adjective form of the town "Velke Popovice" to the southeast of Prague, "Kozel" meant "Goat" (hence the goat on all of their beers), and "Cerny" meant "black."

I know about the correlation between "bock" and "goat" in German, but I thought this beer just used goats as a mascot, since all of their beers have a goat on the label. (I didn't think all of their beers are bocks.) So, it hadn't occured to me that this might be a kind of bock. Plus, I typically think of bocks as being relatively high in alcohol, and this beer is very low in alcohol.

Thanks for the insight.

 

[zgoda]

"Tmave" means dark, "cerne" means black. Compare these to German dunkel and schwarzbier. These two are direct German counterparts to Czech tmave and cerne respectively.

I had many of both and they are different like brown porter and irish (dry) stout. Cerne is dry and roasted, tmave has more body.

The goat (kozel) is a mascot only, nothing in common with bock bier. Czech beers of such strength are called "special" or "specialni lezak".

See Pivní Filosof - Beer Philosopher: Introdution to Pivo

 

[Scooby_Brew]

I believe Zgoda is correct here: Tmave is more like a Schwartzbier then a Bock. A Schwartzbier with Czech lager yeast and Czech hops like Saaz.

 

[Seth_E]

From BYO magazine - http://***********/stories/beer-styles/article/indices/11-beer-styles/247-bohemian-dunkel-style-profile

It's a Czech Dark lager, not a Dunkel or Schwarzbier.

 

[urbanmyth]

I would try Kostritzer. It is a schwarzbier and one of my absolute favorite beers. It sounds like the one you are looking for is similar.

 

[Seth_E]

I would try Kostritzer. It is a schwarzbier and one of my absolute favorite beers. It sounds like the one you are looking for is similar.

Kostritzer is an awesome beer, but the Czech Dark is more like a Munich Dunkel, with pils, Munich, Caramunich and Carafa I.

The clone recipe is in the linked article above.

Beerz
Seth out