Cider sickness and no carbonation

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arringtonbp

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Is it possible to get sick from hard cider? My cider has a slight fusel/sour aftertaste. It has been in bottles for 2 weeks. The fusel taste is not as strong as it was, but the sour taste has gotten a little stronger. I had some yesterday, and I was up all night in the bathroom that night. I did also go to an Indian food festival, so that could be it.

Also, I added a quarter cup of brown sugar to my 1 gallon batch before I bottled it. I let it sit for 2 weeks and pasteurized it. The only carbonation present is a few bubbles at the bottom of the glass. What happened?

I wish I had OG and SG readings to give, but I don't.
 
Need you ask? Which would be more likely to upset your digestion, cider or an Indian food fest? The answer is blowin in the curry.
 
Lol. That's what I figure, but I was curious if anybody has gotten sick off of homebrew cider because one of my friends said he knew somebody that got sick that way.

Also, what about my carbing problem? What can cause a cider to not carb?
 
Read this and replace the word beer with cider.

The whole history of beer, wine, mead and cider/Fermentation is general is that nothing pathogenic can exist in them They were consumed in places where the water could kill you, or make you sick.

Even slightly fermented beverages were consumed, even by children. Hard ciders were drunk like we drink bottled water.

Why do you think the Catholic Church chose wine as the basis of their sacrament? Because wine was more important to the culture of the desert where Christianity came from than water. Water safe, drinkable water was rare. So wine was the safer, common beverage of the day.

The reason you were in tha bathroom was more than likely that your gut is not used to all the yeast in suspension in the cider. I don't know how long the cider was fermenting and clearing before you bottled it, or if you've ever brewed anything else before, but some folks aren't used to yeast in high concentrations. Look up yeast farts and you'll see. But eventually your body will get accustomed to it.

I wouldn't expect a NORMAL grav beer to be carbed at only 2 weeks in the bottle, a high gravity cider.

The 3 weeks at 70 degrees, that we recommend is the minimum time it takes for average gravity beers to carbonate and condition. Higher grav beers take longer.

Stouts and porters have taken me between 6 and 8 weeks to carb up..I have a 1.090 Belgian strong that took three months to carb up.


Temp and gravity are the two factors that contribute to the time it takes to carb beer. But if a beer's not ready yet, or seems low carbed, and you added the right amount of sugar to it, then it's not stalled, it's just not time yet.

Everything you need to know about carbing and conditioning, can be found here Of Patience and Bottle Conditioning. With emphasis on the word, "patience." ;)

Lazy Llama came up with a handy dandy chart to determine how long something takes in brewing, whether it's fermentation, carbonation, bottle conditioning....

chart.jpg


If a beer isn't carbed by "x number of weeks" you just have to give them more time. If you added your sugar, then the beer will carb up eventually, it's really a foolroof process. All beers will carb up eventually. A lot of new brewers think they have to "troubleshoot" a bottling issue, when there really is none, the beer knows how to carb itself. In fact if you run beersmiths carbing calculator, some lower grav beers don't even require additional sugar to reach their minimum level of carbonation. Just time.
 
What revvy said, but since you already pasteurized, you will need to open, add yeast to every bottle to carb (probably more sugar too) and ferment again. Or just drink it semi-flat and do it different next time
 
I missed the pasturized it. Yeah if you killed the yeast before it was carbed to your liking you're going to have to start from scratch.

Next time, wait 3-4 weeks, chill a bottle down to see if it is indeed carbed BEFORE pasturizing it.
 
Well, luckily I have a 6 gallon batch sitting in secondary that I can try that with when it's done. Ugh, I am NOT looking forward to sterilizing 60 bottles lol. Also, it doesn't taste too bad even though it's still. It does have a slight fusel taste I think. I'm not sure if it's fusel or if it's just an alcoholic taste. I don't really taste the alcohol in beer typically, so I'm not sure what I'm tasting in the cider. It's definitely an aftertaste thing.
 
Sanitizing 60 bottles is only about 10 minutes worth of work. Not that big of a deal. Just use the methods in my bottling sticky, and the whole process of bottling from sanitizing to cleanup should take a little more than an hour. It takes me about 45-50 minutes to bottle 5 gallons of beer.
 
Dude, switch to 1L swingtop bottles & you'll cut the time & work of bottling in half! & listen to Revvy, he really does give good advice. Regards, GF.
 
I just brewed/drank some very young, very dry hard cider and all tough it tasted like crap, it did not kill me or even make me ill. Quite the opposite actually ;)
 
I am going to have to carb this 6 gallon batch the right way. I'll let it sit in secondary for a month and see if fermentation is done.
 
Read this and replace the word beer with cider.

The whole history of beer, wine, mead and cider/Fermentation is general is that nothing pathogenic can exist in them They were consumed in places where the water could kill you, or make you sick.

I'm not trying to be an a$$ here nor am I trying to start an argument, but I'm sure you've heard of the incidence of
E.coli O157:H7 in apple juice. and E. coli poisoning in apple juice leads to recall

That's one of the reasons why I don't support "no pathogens can live in beer/juice/cider".

M_C
 
I'm not trying to be an a$$ here nor am I trying to start an argument, but I'm sure you've heard of the incidence of
E.coli O157:H7 in apple juice. and E. coli poisoning in apple juice leads to recall

That's one of the reasons why I don't support "no pathogens can live in beer/juice/cider".

M_C



Last I heard apple juice wasn't a fermented beverage.......

You can buy it or not buy it, I don't care, it's still the truth. That's why they drank fermented ciders in early America and England "back in the day."

*shrug*
 
And you don't have to believe me, but how bout Dr. Charles Bamforth?

I know he's talking about beer here but the ability for pathogenss to survive in alcoholic environments is pretty well known.

From http://www.scientificamerican.com/podcast/episode.cfm?id=716465BC-E7F2-99DF-3EAB0C599937C0E6

Beer Science; And A Cancer Research Report
In this episode, University of California, Davis, professor Charles Bamforth talks about beer science. And journalist Kevin Begos discusses the centennial meeting of the American Association For Cancer Research. Plus we'll test your knowedge of some recent science in the news.

Charlie Bamforth who knows as much about beer as any one and has one of the great titles in all of academia. He is the Anheuser-Busch professor of malting and brewing sciences at the University of California, Davis; and journalist Kevin Begos joins us. He reports on the recent conference of the American Association for Cancer Research.

First up, Charlie Bamforth. He is the author of "Beer: Tap into the Art and Science of Brewing." He spoke at the New York Academy of Sciences in late February, and I wrote about his talk in the May issue of Scientific American, but since Charlie is so entertaining and my column is so short, I thought there was plenty more to explore.I called Bamforth at his office at U.C., Davis.



.....Steve: Until very recently, wasn't water dangerous to drink? Is that part of why wine and beer were the drinks of choice throughout the last 8,000 years or so?

Bamforth: Yeah! Beer is certainly not hospitable for the growth of microorganisms. You know, we don’t have coli scares in beer. Pathogens will not grow in beer and the beer—of course during production it's boiled—beer contains hops which has got antimicrobial components, and so, you know, ales and beers over the years have been safer to drink rather than the water because of these reasons. You know, the early settlers in this country, you know, the story is told of those guys landing up from the rocks. Why? Because of victuals were much spent especially of beer, and, you know, the people, they kept enough beer for the sailors to go back on the Mayflower. The people who were settling there were drinking the local water, and they were getting sick because, you know, if they’ve [they'd] been drinking the ale, and they would've been much healthier.

Steve: Right! You tell that story in the book. You also mention that the first paved street in America, in New York City—in what is now New York City was paved so that the beer wagons could get through better.

NPR Science Fridays.

http://www.npr.org/2010/12/03/131785456/Searching-For-Science-In-A-Glass-of-Beer

Click to listen

FLATOW: You're listening to SCIENCE FRIDAY. I'm Ira Flatow. My guest is Charlie Bamforth, author of "Beer is Proof God Loves Us: Reaching for the Soul of Beer and Brewing." And if you'd like to read some of that, you'll find an excerpt on our website, at sciencefriday.com.

Is it hard to brew beer for yourself? Would you like to try it, Charlie?

Prof. BAMFORTH: Well, I don't brew by myself. I've always been professionally involved in the industry. So I've never gone home and brewed beer. But it's not easy. You know, you want to get it right. And the golden rule if you're going to brew at home is hygiene, hygiene, hygiene, make sure everything's nice and clean. Although beer...

FLATOW: I'm sorry, go ahead.

Prof. BAMFORTH: Although beer is resistant to pathogenic organisms, no pathogens will grow in beer, there are some bacteria that will grow in beer. As far as I know, none that use arsenic. (Soundbite of laughter)

Prof. BAMFORTH: But there are some that will grow in beer, and you've got to make sure you don't introduce them.

He also talks about it here Bamfoth's book on Google books.


I've covered just about everything you could want to know here.
 

:off:

I would add one exception to this chart -- lagers. A light lager needs a few months to condition out all the sulfur taste, because there's nowhere for that taste to hide.

I have a pilsner lagering in the keg, going on 1 1/2 months now, I'm pulling the tab every day, and it's only just now starting to smooth out.
 
I did find this...BUT the OP did pasturize.

Pasteurized or Not?

Until recently, the fresh cider sold in the United States was the unadulterated, unpasteurized juice of fresh-pressed apples. Cider that includes a blend of sweet and tart varieties usually has an acidity level, or pH, of around 3.6—enough acid to suppress most pathogenic bacteria. But recently a dangerous new form of the common bacterium Escherichia coli has developed that can survive even very acidic conditions. Almost all commercially produced cider is now heat-treated to temperatures around 170°F for several seconds in a flash-pasteurization process similar to milk sanitation. If done correctly, this has little effect on the flavor, suppresses potential pathogens, and greatly increases cider's shelf life in the refrigerator.

Cider makers who use only unblemished apples that have never touched the ground, follow a rigorous series of sanitation procedures to cleanse every apple, and routinely test their cider for E. coli are still permitted to sell their cider as unpasteurized, with a printed warning that explains potential health risks to consumers. Pasteurization is not necessary for hard cider because the ethanol produced during fermentation is a natural preservative that eliminates potential pathogens.

Interesting, It sounds like it's a NEWER mutant version of E-Coli can exist But it doesn't say if it's in fermented ciders or not.
 
:off:

I would add one exception to this chart -- lagers. A light lager needs a few months to condition out all the sulfur taste, because there's nowhere for that taste to hide.

I have a pilsner lagering in the keg, going on 1 1/2 months now, i'm pulling the tab every day, and it's only just now starting to smooth out.

+1
 
This is a good read.. What Would John Adams Drink?
Get ready for the rebirth of cider in America.


A thirsty American colonist had limited beverage options. For everyone but the lucky few who lived near a natural spring or fast-running stream, water was often contaminated, sometimes deadly, and always unpalatable. Milk in those days was seen merely as a precursor to cream, cheese, and butter. Alcohol wasn't an indulgence; it was what we drank. It was hygienic: Even at relatively low concentrations, alcohol kills most pathogens. And, according to the prevailing view at the time, it fortified the body against illness and the backbreaking labor of subduing a wild country.
 
I think revvy has that post saved in a word doc, and he just copies and pastes it. I think I have seen it like 1000 times! LOL

P.S. I mean the one at the beginning of the thread
 
Pasteurization is not necessary for hard cider because the ethanol produced during fermentation is a natural preservative that eliminates potential pathogens.

Yup.
 
One important point, I think, is that the cider that I used was store-bought cider. It wasn't cider from a local orchard or anything of that sort. Therefore, it was pasteurized when I got it. In addition to this, I stove-top pasteurized it after it was bottled for 2 weeks (which is why it had absolutely no carbonation to it when I drank it). Clearly I had a lot of learning to do, but I am ready for my next batch to be done. I think I'll save this post for reference LOL
 
Oddly enough, my cider did eventually continue to carb up after I pasteurized it. I'm going to let the cider continue to sit and hope that I don't get bottle bombs.
 
lol. Ima keep a towel over those suckers and probably drink them next week sometime after I stick them in the fridge for a few days.
 
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