Cider lacking in body

[Pataka]

I thought both my ciders (apple and Loquat) were done, but as it has warmed up here again, the fermentation appears to have restarted. I decided to take an SG reading of both to see where they were at, and have a short taste test.

The Apple cider is at about 1.010 (down from a starting 1.048) while the Loquat is more like 1.003 (down from 1.045). The taste test was interesting.

I tried the Loquat first, and it had mild flavour and a lot of acidity. If I was to describe the missing element, it would be 'body'.

The apple came second, and I'd rate it lower than the Loquat. It was sweeter (expected as it still has more residual sugar) but not as acidic nor flavoursome. It was started about a week after the Loquat, hence why it hasn't fermented as far and perhaps, why it's dreadfully lacking in taste.

Both were fermented with Lalvin EC1118. Will they develop body as they age, or did I just not make them with a strong enough starting must? I'm considering doing my next batch using concentrate. I know people often do that to boost the SG, but I'd be doing it more for the additional flavour, if that would help.

Any advice is welcomed.

 

[user 171019]

1118 is a powerful yeast. I would have recommended an Ale yeast like Nottingham. Stabilizing and adding a little sweetness might help.

 

[Texconsinite]

I made several ciders with EC1118, and found the same thing. It eats ALL the flavor and sweetness, leaving only a watery liquid with sour tart pucker. I backsweetened with different kinds of nonfermentable sweeteners, but it just gave it a cloying fake sweetness that IMO didnt blend well w tartness.

I dont think it will develop body as it ages, the bottles of my cider I've tried after 6 months are still the same, maybe a little less tart, but still really tart. If its watery now, it will stay that way.

If you can force-crab, or willing to have still cider, I'd sulphite your batches once they finish fermenting and then bkacsweeten with AJC and sugar until it gets back that apple flavor and body.

However, Im done w using wine yeast for ciders. Last 2 batches, I used Nottingham instead, and wow, SO much more flavor and body left. The beer yeast doesn't dry it out like 1118. You can still get a strong cider from the beer yeast, mine went to 10.7% and 11.3%, (stronger than prev batchs w wine yeast), and tasted alot more like the commercial ciders Ive tried (in a good way)

 

[Pataka]

I think I got screwed by confirmation bias on this. A quick search for 'ec1118' and 'cider' shows some posts from people who had good results. If you keep searching for that, then that is what you find. However, after starting my two batches I found more and more posts saying ec1118 wasn't great for cider, and that they had better results with Nottingham. It's interesting that both your responses have also agreed with this.


I never used the word 'watery' in my original post, but its absolutely right. The apple cider tastes like The Miller or Budweiser of ciders. There is just nothing to it. It has gone into the freezer to turn into Applejack. I am hoping I might get some flavour out of that.

The Loquat cider might have a use for topping up the next batch I make using actual fruit after racking. I guess I could pasteurise it to kill the ec1118 so it doesn't contaminate the Nottingham brew.

In any case, I tend to think both my batches are doomed, and that I should start processing the next lot of juice. What do you guys think the chances would be that wild yeast will still be alive on the skins of fruit after freezing? I am also thinking about making a small yeast starter and finding out. Wild yeast could be interesting - at least no worse than ec1118.

Thoughts?

 

[Beernik]

When making wine, cyser, or mead I always throw in some dried fruit, like raisins, prunes, or dates. It helps maintain body.

 

[user 171019]

What do you guys think the chances would be that wild yeast will still be alive on the skins of fruit after freezing? I am also thinking about making a small yeast starter and finding out. Wild yeast could be interesting - at least no worse than ec1118.

Thoughts?

I don't have experience with freezing wild yeast --- I do know that freezing brewing yeast will not kill it --- I store some of my yeast that way for long term usage. Let us know how it turns out...

 

[Pataka]

I don't have experience with freezing wild yeast --- I do know that freezing brewing yeast will not kill it --- I store some of my yeast that way for long term usage. Let us know how it turns out...

Will do. The 'starter' is sitting in a sterilised jar as I write.

I bought myself a sachet of Nottingham this afternoon so will start another 1L Proof of concept batch over the next couple of days using that. Given the Loquat cider was more flavoursome than the Apple cider using ec1118, and yet Apple cider (when properly brewed) is a very popular drink, I think it bodes well for turning Loquat juice into a successful drink. With the right yeast, the apple juice should turn into decent cider, and the loquat juice perhaps even better.. Who knows?

Anyway, tonight it'll be the more tedious part of juicing enough fruit to yield enough to freeze concentrate. I've already got 1L of juice, but will be bumping up the SG by adding concentrate, rather than just adding sugar. I'd rather not risk having another bland batch. The last batch of juice I extracted had an SG of about 1.045, so I think I'll go for about 1.055. I don't want it loaded with alcohol, but do want lots of flavour.

 

[taoisilent]

The few times I have made cider, I used Nottingham with good results. I brew beer primarily, so I always have Nottingham on hand.

 

[Pataka]

I don't have experience with freezing wild yeast --- I do know that freezing brewing yeast will not kill it --- I store some of my yeast that way for long term usage. Let us know how it turns out...

Update as of this morning (roughly 36 hours after starting the experiment), lots of bubbles had gathered underneath pieces of fruit pulp. I went to open the jar and heard the unmistakable sound of pressure releasing. Listening into the jar and heard the telltale sign of bubbles popping at the surface.

This fruit has been frozen since Dec 2013/Jan 2014, so I guess what this proves is that wild yeast does survive being frozen. There's always a slim chance the yeast came in from the surrounding atmosphere, but I started the fermentation inside with all windows closed, and under identical conditions to how I start 'actual' fermentations.

 

[user 171019]

Very good, I may need to experiment with wild yeast also.

 

[Pataka]

I juiced another 1L last night, so could theoretically start two batches; one with Nottingham and one with wild yeast.

While I still have a fair bit of fruit left, I'm mindful of the fact that I'm yet to produce something that's actually drinkable, so don't want to waste it all on things that are doomed to fail. This is why I'm sticking to very small batches initially.