Cider Kit taking too long, someone with some know how please have a look.

[Maylar]

Do you mean glass carboys? What's the purpose of secondary fermentation? I thought that could be done in the bottles. The kit says to just bottle or barrel, it mentions nothing about a secondary ferment, but it wouldn't because it's very vague!

Edit: To be clear, I want to carbonate if that makes any difference at all to secondary/bottling.

Very few of us make cider from kits, and yours is exclusive to the UK so we're only guessing as to ingredients and the instructions that you've been given. Most of the responses you'll get here assume classic cider making methods that include racking to secondary to allow the cider to finish fermenting and clear. That's not what your kit is about.

The process of carbonating in your case would be to bottle when fermentation is "almost" complete, so that there's enough sugar left to create the bubbles but not so much as to bust the bottles. Unfortunately, you can't judge that by time. Without knowing what yeast strain was included in your kit, I would advise bottling at 1.005 specific gravity which is normally considered a safe level.

Without having done a secondary, you will have sediment in the bottles. No big deal to some people.

Do you mean fully open, with just a towel or no lid at all like mentioned earlier in the thread? That terrifies me if I'm honest. I have read so much about keeping it clean, sterile and free of contaminants that even when I open the cap I'm super cautious.

It terrifies me too. Fruit flies are NOT your friends.

What are gamma lids?

An alternative to the snap on lids for plastic bucket fermentors:

http://freckleface.com/shopsite_sc/store/html/gammaseals.html

Apologies for posting twice, can't work out how to quote more than once in the app.

Click the quotation mark in the first post, then the Quote button in the second.

 

[CMcPherson]

Do you mean fully open, with just a towel or no lid at all like mentioned earlier in the thread? That terrifies me if I'm honest. I have read so much about keeping it clean, sterile and free of contaminants that even when I open the cap I'm super cautious.

What are gamma lids?

Yeah... I'm not comfortable enough yet to use a towel/T-shirt/cheese cloth cover for my primary bucket. Mylar linked to the Gamma Lids.
I screw it on just enough to catch and leave it loose. When I want to aerate, I just take the lid off and then replace it when done.
Once I get a few more brews under my belt, and also begin making cider vinegar, I'll experiment with totally open fermentation. That way, if one does turn to vinegar, it won't be a waste.

Hang in there Mother. This seems to be a great group.

With a 5 or 6 gallon batch I leave the lid on loosely and will bubble it with pure oxygen and a wand for the first 2 days then snap the lid and airlock on.

I do that because there seems to be consensus that yeast needs oxygen in the early stages of fermentation. But after reading this...

https://www.morebeer.com/articles/how_yeast_use_oxygen

.. I'm thinking that it's not necessary.

Yep. This wand thingie: http://www.northernbrewer.com/oxygenation-kit

And a Benzomatic oxygen bottle.

Read the article that I linked to. It says we've all been misinformed about oxygen.

I am reading through it. From what I'm able to understand, O2 may not be used for respiration but does seem to be used for cell biosynthesis.
Regardless, isn't off-gassing the CO2 beneficial?

Why do you use O2 if you don't believe that it is necessary?
This is not a challenge but rather an honest question.

What is the duration that you use your O2 wand? Continuously or intermittently?

 

[Maylar]

I am reading through it. From what I'm able to understand, O2 may not be used for respiration but does seem to be used for cell biosynthesis.
Regardless, isn't off-gassing the CO2 beneficial?

Why do you use O2 if you don't believe that it is necessary?
This is not a challenge but rather an honest question.

What is the duration that you use your O2 wand? Continuously or intermittently?

I just started doing it, and before I read the article. Haven't done a with/without oxygen comparison yet, so I dunno how much difference it makes if any. All I did was wave the wand about for 20 seconds or so and make lots of bubbles. That batch fermented really fast but it was a different yeast and protocol from my norm so the O2 aspect is unknown. I'm sure it doesn't hurt, so I'll keep doing this at least until my little bottle of O2 is empty.

FWIW, I have a cider book by Claude Jolicoeur and he doesn't mention anything about aeration. And Nottingham yeast says it's not necessary.

I know that the mead folks are big proponents of stirring / degassing to expel CO2 and keep the yeast in suspension. And I think I've read Madam Yooper as having said she stirs her ciders too. But I've made cider with nothing but an airlock from day 1 and they turned out fine, so who knows.

 

[CMcPherson]

Thank you so much Mylar for all of the patients that you have had!
So you just do the O2 wand once then?
I've been stirring several times a day and plan to do so until the primary heavy fermentation settles down.
I LOVE Claude's book. I've devoured it. I reread sections repeatedly.

I'm done hijacking your thread now Mother.
Good luck with your new hobby.

 

[dmtaylor]

Apple juice naturally has oxygen in it, so aeration is a waste of time. It's not like you're boiling it like you would for beer, where most of the oxygen is driven off during the boil. Plus with cider most people are using dry yeast, which also requires no aeration, however this is only a very minor consideration, if at all, compared to my first point.

Some folks say there is benefit in CO2 removal during fermentation. They're probably right. But I don't bother and I like the results. One thing I do differently than some people is to rack the cider often. I recommend racking every 7-10 days for the first 4-5 weeks. In so doing, the cider is likely off-gassing to a fair extent anyway just moving from one container to another.

 

[CMcPherson]

Thanks Dave.
I'm a "if some is good then more is better" kind of guy.
So, for now at least, I'll keep on with the oxygenation.
There does seem to be a good bit of consensus on CO2 off-gassing benefits.

And as far as a "waste of time" goes... isn't this ALL a waste of time?

 

[dmtaylor]

Anything that improves quality of life and increases happiness without causing harm is not a waste of time.

 

[CMcPherson]

Agreed!!

 

[TheMotherConfessor]

Okay, so it's now been 28 days and the SG reads a consistent 1.012. I'm guessing that fermentation has now stopped. The kit says to only bottle at 1.006 or lower. What should I do?

Thanks,
Sarah.

 

[GaBrewZoo]

Throw the instructions away. Yeast will do what it wants to do. If your gravity is the same for at least three days, and the cider is starting to clear, then the yeast is done, go ahead and bottle it. If you are carbonating in the bottle, use a priming calculator to figure the amount of sugar, or honey, or whatever you're using for priming. I use brewersfriend.com for my calculators, but use one that has options for different priming agents, volumes, and temperature. Do not use the instructions that came with the kit. Let it condition at room temp for at least two to three weeks, then chill one bottle for a day and try it. Good luck, and enjoy.

 

[dmtaylor]

Good cider takes at least a month, if not 2-3 months, to complete fermentation. Don't rush it. Leave it alone! And then, when you just can't wait to play with it, leave it alone again! And then, when you're sure it must be all done fermenting, leave it alone even longer! Give it at least a month before messing around with it at all.

Reference my previous post above.

 

[Maylar]

Okay, so it's now been 28 days and the SG reads a consistent 1.012. I'm guessing that fermentation has now stopped. The kit says to only bottle at 1.006 or lower. What should I do?

Thanks,
Sarah.

Measure it again in a few days. I've never seen a cider stop at 1.012... it's not done yet.

 

[TheMotherConfessor]

Okay. I'll stop panicking!

 

[TheMotherConfessor]

Thanks!

 

[MarkKF]

I would rack it and put it somewhere a little warmer. It might drop the .006. If not move it somewhere cooler to clear.

 

[TheMotherConfessor]

It's in the top range of its temp for the yeast so I can't really up it anymore.

It's started to clear now it's been that long and it's looking lovely. Almost crystal clear. SG is consistent and has been for a week or two.

Although the kit doesn't recommend bottling at that SG, from what I have learned on here is that it will be sweeter, less dry and taste more of apples so if that is the case then I'm happy to leave it at that and not add any more yeast.

If you do recommend adding more yeast, what strain would give a neutral flavor?

If you recommend I bottle at this point (it's been a month in primary and the kit is supposed to give a quick ferment) is it safe to bottle and carbonate with the SG that high? The last thing I want to do is create bottle bombs and ruin my lovely flip top grolsch bottles lol.

Thanks again.
Sarah.

 

[Maylar]

If the SG has been stable for a week, then it is what it is I guess.

You're between a rock and a hard place here: If the ferment is truly finished then there won't be any carbonation when you bottle. If it's still fermenting, then 1.012 is high enough to cause exploding bottles.

The good news is that your flip top bottles can be easily popped open to release pressure if they get over carbonated. So... I'd go for it and bottle now.

 

[TheMotherConfessor]

If I leave it even longer am I risking the yeast dying and ruining my chances of carbonation?

 

[CMcPherson]

What if she fills a plastic soda bottle along with bottling the rest of it in her Grolsch bottles?
This way she can monitor the plastic bottle for pressure and then pasteurize the bottles.
I'm of course making the safe assumption that fermentation isn't over.

 

[CMcPherson]

I don't want to read through the whole thread again but, has yeast nutrients been suggested yet?

 

[Maylar]

If I leave it even longer am I risking the yeast dying and ruining my chances of carbonation?

Yes. But again, I've never seen cider stop at 1.012. I can't explain how that's possible, as any yeast will go below that. If that truly is where your yeast wants to stop (as evidenced by multiple readings not changing), then it won't continue to eat sugar and make bubbles.

FWIW, all of my ciders have finished in the 1.000 - 1.004 range, regardless of yeast used.

 

[Maylar]

I don't want to read through the whole thread again but, has yeast nutrients been suggested yet?

She's using a kit. I believe it came with nutrients.

 

[TheMotherConfessor]

Other than SG is there anyway I can see if the yeast is still alive? If I were to bottle one flip top how long would it take to carbonate (I could see if it works after priming maybe?) I also have some coopers 500ml pet bottles that I could use.

I will leave it another week. Have I got the temp too low for the kit to work properly? It's sitting at around 20-21°C. I know that it could well take longer than the kit says, but surely not 3 weeks longer?

Thanks to both of you again, you have both been invaluable in helping me.
Sarah.

 

[CMcPherson]

Try putting some into an empty soda bottle.
Keep it at room temp. and you'll be able to feel if it's becoming pressurized with CO2.
That will be an easy way to tell.
Then, if it is still active (I bet it is), you can degas your soda bottle tester and bottle the rest. When your tester becomes pressurized again I believe that you could then Pasteurize your glass bottles and store.

None of this is personal experience, just what I understand as a new cider maker.

 

[GaBrewZoo]

Try reading up on different ways of making ciders. Below is a recipe I found that turns into a pretty sweet, very tasty cider. Explains about bottle pasteurizing also. My only recommendation would be to use cinnamon extract instead of powder. Powdered cinnamon will not dissolve and looks pretty ugly plopping out of the bottle into the glass.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=292770

 

[Maylar]

Other than SG is there anyway I can see if the yeast is still alive? If I were to bottle one flip top how long would it take to carbonate (I could see if it works after priming maybe?) I also have some coopers 500ml pet bottles that I could use.

I will leave it another week. Have I got the temp too low for the kit to work properly? It's sitting at around 20-21°C. I know that it could well take longer than the kit says, but surely not 3 weeks longer?

Thanks to both of you again, you have both been invaluable in helping me.
Sarah.

I agree that something is fishy. I'm beginning to wonder if your specific gravity measurements are accurate. Cider shouldn't stop at 1.012 and 3 weeks beyond expected finish time does seem odd. Have you verified that your hydrometer reads 1.000 in pure water?

 

[TheMotherConfessor]

Yeah I have tested it and it's only 1.001 off. I phoned the manufacturers of the kit yesterday and they told me to bottle with one of each brew in a plastic bottle so I took the plunge.

They have no idea what went wrong other than maybe the temp. I have one more of their kits so if that one goes as badly I will write them off as being bad kits but if it goes well maybe just a bad batch.

I have the temp stabilised now so nothing should go wrong with the next one. I even have a probe thermometer on the way so I can take regular temp readings of not only the room temp but the liquid temp cause I don't trust the lcd stick on things.

Thanks again for all your help.
Sarah.