Cider kegging questions

[ericbw]

This is my first time kegging, and I have a couple of questions. Very basic recipe:

1.5 gallons fresh cider
Sugar to bring it to 1.060
Pectic enzyme
yeast nutrient
EC-1118 yeast

We added campden, enzyme, and nutrient and let it sit for 2 days. Pitched yeast and let it ferment for 2+ weeks. We've done it this way several times before and know that it will be super dry, and probably around 8-8.5% ABV.

This time, we're going for a sweeter English style, so the plan is to dilute with fresh cider, sweeten with frozen apple juice concentrate, and keg to carbonate.

Questions:

1. Stabilizing. We'll need to kill the yeast in the fermented cider and the fresh. I know campden stops reproduction, but doesn't totally stabilize. Is potassium sorbate the right way to stabilize? Any insight on how much to use? Does it affect the flavor at all?

2. Clearing. After dilution, sweetening, and stabilizing, will there still be a lot of settling and sediment? Does it make sense to let the stable cider sit in secondary to clear some (like a brite tank)? Or will it keep dropping sediment anyway?

3. Carbonation. I read somewhere that ciders are usually carbed below 2.0 volumes. Is that accurate from experience? For ciders like Strongbow or Woodchuck?

 

[Yooper]

1. Sorbate inhibits yeast reproduction, but doesn't kill yeast. Sorbate works better in the presence of sulfite (campden) so they are used together. Campden doesn't do a thing for yeast or yeast reproduction- ale and wine yeast are amazingly tolerate of sulfites. Stabilizing with sorbate and campden only works if the cider is totally clear and without yeast sediment. Use 1/2 teaspoon per gallon, along with 1 crushed campden tablet per gallon, crushed and dissolved in some hot water. Put that into the keg, and rack the cider into it. It does impart a slight flavor, and I do not like the taste but others might not even notice.

2. It has to be clear before stabilizing, for the stabilizers to "work".

3. Ciders are usually more highly carbed, in my experience.

 

[Bigscience]

Here's what I've worked out, your mileage may vary. Ferment 5 gallons of cider and wait until it clears. Rack to a keg and then top up with fresh cider to get a full keg. I've also partially frozen cider before adding to get even more flavor/sweetness as well. Chill it down and carb to ~3.5 volumes. I don't bother messing with preservatives as from now on, it will be cold and carbonated. Some of the added cider may get fermented but not so much that it drys all the way out. Once it's carbed up, taste it and if you think it is too dry, replace what you just drank with more fresh cider. You can also add gelatin when you crack the keg too.

This makes some really easy quick tasty cider in a keg. I'm not sure I'd bottle for long term storage though with the residual sugars in there.

 

[ericbw]

Here's what I've worked out, your mileage may vary. Ferment 5 gallons of cider and wait until it clears. Rack to a keg and then top up with fresh cider to get a full keg. I've also partially frozen cider before adding to get even more flavor/sweetness as well. Chill it down and carb to ~3.5 volumes. I don't bother messing with preservatives as from now on, it will be cold and carbonated. Some of the added cider may get fermented but not so much that it drys all the way out. Once it's carbed up, taste it and if you think it is too dry, replace what you just drank with more fresh cider. You can also add gelatin when you crack the keg too.

This makes some really easy quick tasty cider in a keg. I'm not sure I'd bottle for long term storage though with the residual sugars in there.

Part of my concern is that it may not always be cold, depending on fridge space, etc. I might also bottle from the keg to free it up as well. So residual sugars and yeast are not on option in this case.

I appreciate the insight on carb level, as I think of cider as more carbed than some ales, not less. I will have to see where I found that. The logic was something about how it is taxed as wine vs champagne... now it just sounds wrong. Never mind! Cider is definitely more fizzy like soda.

 

[ericbw]

1. Sorbate inhibits yeast reproduction, but doesn't kill yeast. Sorbate works better in the presence of sulfite (campden) so they are used together. Campden doesn't do a thing for yeast or yeast reproduction- ale and wine yeast are amazingly tolerate of sulfites. Stabilizing with sorbate and campden only works if the cider is totally clear and without yeast sediment. Use 1/2 teaspoon per gallon, along with 1 crushed campden tablet per gallon, crushed and dissolved in some hot water. Put that into the keg, and rack the cider into it. It does impart a slight flavor, and I do not like the taste but others might not even notice.

2. It has to be clear before stabilizing, for the stabilizers to "work".

3. Ciders are usually more highly carbed, in my experience.

What good are the chemicals if they don't really kill it? Inhibit reproduction, and eventually they die off? And if sorbate doesn't really work, then why don't we use any old apple juice from the store to make cider?

If chemicals won't work for this application (doesn't really stop the yeast AND affects flavor), then the next best method would be heat pasteurization. That's 30 minutes at 145-155, or only 16 seconds at 161. Hopefully it wouldn't boil off too much alcohol or liquid at that temp.

I don't want to heat the fresh cider for fear of pectin haze. Or does it take boiling to really get that? In any event, the fresh cider is already pasteurized, although we have had spontaneous ferments from this orchard. (Yeast could have gotten in after we opened it.) So my thought is that there is probably not enough yeast to worry about in the fresh.

How is this: Vat pasteurize the fermented cider (heat to 161 and kill the heat. Immediately chill in an ice bath). Add fresh cider and concentrate to get the right flavor. Then keg and carbonate. Will that work AND allow me to bottle carbed cider from the keg?

 

[Yooper]

What good are the chemicals if they don't really kill it? Inhibit reproduction, and eventually they die off? And if sorbate doesn't really work, then why don't we use any old apple juice from the store to make cider?

If chemicals won't work for this application (doesn't really stop the yeast AND affects flavor), then the next best method would be heat pasteurization. That's 30 minutes at 145-155, or only 16 seconds at 161. Hopefully it wouldn't boil off too much alcohol or liquid at that temp.

I don't want to heat the fresh cider for fear of pectin haze. Or does it take boiling to really get that? In any event, the fresh cider is already pasteurized, although we have had spontaneous ferments from this orchard. (Yeast could have gotten in after we opened it.) So my thought is that there is probably not enough yeast to worry about in the fresh.

How is this: Vat pasteurize the fermented cider (heat to 161 and kill the heat. Immediately chill in an ice bath). Add fresh cider and concentrate to get the right flavor. Then keg and carbonate. Will that work AND allow me to bottle carbed cider from the keg?

The sorbate works because it inhibits yeast reproduction. In a clear cider, with no sediment on the bottom, you add the sorbate. And then when you add fermentable sugars, the yeast can't reproduce to ferment it. That's how it works- not by killing anything but interfering with yeast reproduction.

Heat pasteurization works. That's what they do for things like milk.

Or, alternatively, keg the cider and keep it cold. Then it won't ferment anymore.

 

[ericbw]

The sorbate works because it inhibits yeast reproduction. In a clear cider, with no sediment on the bottom, you add the sorbate. And then when you add fermentable sugars, the yeast can't reproduce to ferment it. That's how it works- not by killing anything but interfering with yeast reproduction.

Heat pasteurization works. That's what they do for things like milk.

Or, alternatively, keg the cider and keep it cold. Then it won't ferment anymore.

So I could rack it again and let it sit for a week and see what I get as far as sediment. Rack till it's clear, like wine. And then dilute and sweeten and add sorbate/sulfite. But you still say there would be some potential for tasting it.

I'm probably going to heat pasteurize. I can't guarantee I will keep it cold, so it has to be done fermenting one way or another.

I want to try a batch with Munton's regular yeast. I had horrible attenuation with ale, and that's exactly what cider needs to keep it sweet - horrible attenuation.

 

[Bigscience]

I'd also think that there would also be some inhibition at high CO2 levels that wouldn't let it dry all the way out in a keg. No help if you bottle and then store long term at room temp though.

Another thing to think about is pectic enzyme too if you are going to pasteurize.

 

[ericbw]

I'd also think that there would also be some inhibition at high CO2 levels that wouldn't let it dry all the way out in a keg. No help if you bottle and then store long term at room temp though.

Another thing to think about is pectic enzyme too if you are going to pasteurize.

Pectin enzyme in the fresh cider you mean?