cider from frozen concentrate?

[Zywo]

Hey forum goers,

so i decided to throw 13 cans of frozen concentrate, one cup white sugar and a packet of yeast with 5 gallons of water into my carboy and see what happens. any idea what ABV I will get? will this be a cider? Wine? Is letting it sit in the carboy 3 weeks than bottling for 1-2 weeks a good plan?

Thanks

David

 

[GinKings]

Is that 5 gallons water plus the concentrate or is the concentrate and water together 5 gallons?

 

[Daze]

assuming it ferments out dry the ABV will be in the neighborhood of 5.5% if it is a 5 gallon batch and about 4.5% if it is a 6 gallon batch.

 

[brewingmeister]

I think technically a cider has to be under 7%, anything over is wine.
Without gravity readings you are just guessing and there is really no way to judge percentages or a time table for finishing.
I can't help but suggest a hydrometer.

 

[Daze]

nix that my earlier calculations were not correct. I was estimating 5% abv for 450g of sugar per gallon but it really should be 6% so that would make you ABV (assuming you ferment it out dry) about 6.5% for a 5 gallon batch and 5.5 for a 6 gallon batch

Without gravity readings you are just guessing and there is really no way to judge percentages or a time table for finishing.
I can't help but suggest a hydrometer.

Not true, I agree he needs a hydrometer but those can be just as inaccurate if there are non sugar solids in the liquid. Calculating the ABV based on the g of suger is just as effective if you know the actual g and are not guessing.

I do the math, take a hydrometer reading AND a refractometer reading when I start a batch. I do this because it allows me to account for solids and such and I can use all three reading to come up with one more accurate reading.

I recently did two different batches of cider from concentrate and based on the g of sugar in the concentrate cans I figured out my OG and it was identical to the other two reading so it can be done.

I think technically a cider has to be under 7%, anything over is wine.

Be carful I made that comment once before and it was like whacking a hornets nest. try and define "cider" and you will get a ton of different answers including some that allow for it to be more than 7%... a lot more

 

[Zywo]

Is that 5 gallons water plus the concentrate or is the concentrate and water together 5 gallons?

5 gallons total

 

[Zywo]

Not true, I agree he needs a hydrometer but those can be just as inaccurate if there are non sugar solids in the liquid.

There are no non sugar solids in the batch

 

[Zywo]

I have heard people talking about back-sweetening and a few other techniques, do I need to do those with a "cider" like this?

 

[Daze]

There are no non sugar solids in the batch

In this particular case you are probably right since you started with concentrate which is usually filtered, but had you started with pressed apple juice not from concentrate there would be tiny bits of apple in it. those are the kinds of solids I am referring to that can throw off a hydrometer reading.

I have heard people talking about back-sweetening and a few other techniques, do I need to do those with a "cider" like this?

depends, do you want your cider to be sweet? if so the easiest way to get it that way is to let it ferment out dry, stabilize with sorbate or pasteurization and then add more sweetness by adding concentrate or sugar, also known as back sweetening

 

[Zywo]

the easiest way to get it that way is to let it ferment out dry, stabilize with sorbate or pasteurization and then add more sweetness by adding concentrate or sugar, also known as back sweetening

What is the need for stabilizing the cider by either sorbate or pasteurization?

 

[Daze]

if you ferment it out dry then add more sugar the fermentation will kick back up and eat the sugar you just added.

 

[Zywo]

Aahhh I see. Will the cider be pleasant to drink if I don NOT back sweeten?

 

[Daze]

It is all a mater of taste. If you like dry wines than yes, if you don't like dry wines, than no. If you do not back sweeten it will be tart and you will want to age it to allow the apple flavors to become more prominent.

 

[Zywo]

Ok, so is sorbate or pasteurization stabalizing easier? Could you give me a quick run-through of the process? Then when I back sweeten this is before I bottle yes? If the yeast are dead in order to back sweeten then how do I get carbonation into my bottles??....

Sorry, total cider newbie, appreciate the info so far

 

[Daze]

if you are wanting a carbonated sweet cider that is a horse of a different color. you will need to bottle pasteurize after the cider has carbonated a bit. read the sticky at the top of this forum on the subject. takes about 4 hours to read the whole thing but is well worth it as it will tell you how to do it and not end up with bombs

 

[brewingmeister]

Not true, I agree he needs a hydrometer but those can be just as inaccurate if there are non sugar solids in the liquid. Calculating the ABV based on the g of suger is just as effective if you know the actual g and are not guessing.

Be carful I made that comment once before and it was like whacking a hornets nest. try and define "cider" and you will get a ton of different answers including some that allow for it to be more than 7%... a lot more

ok you could do a bunch of math but it is so much easier to take a gravity reading. I mentioned that before since the op was asking about a time table. It's bad practice to use a set time for a fermentation. Thinking it ended before it did can lead to problems.

The tax definition of cider is .5% to 7%, if it's over 7 it is considered wine. not to say people don't call anything with apple in it cider, no matter what the abv. Call whatever you make whatever you want but if you try and sell it you have to call it wine if it's over 7.

 

[divi2323]

if you are wanting a carbonated sweet cider that is a horse of a different color. you will need to bottle pasteurize after the cider has carbonated a bit. read the sticky at the top of this forum on the subject. takes about 4 hours to read the whole thing but is well worth it as it will tell you how to do it and not end up with bombs

+1 on this. When I started making cider, this thread was my bible, not just for the pasturization section but for all the nuggets of information contained in the 35+ pages. Read it if you're serious about making any amount of cider sweet, dry, carbonated, still.

 

[GinKings]

ok you could do a bunch of math but it is so much easier to take a gravity reading. I mentioned that before since the op was asking about a time table. It's bad practice to use a set time for a fermentation. Thinking it ended before it did can lead to problems.

The tax definition of cider is .5% to 7%, if it's over 7 it is considered wine. not to say people don't call anything with apple in it cider, no matter what the abv. Call whatever you make whatever you want but if you try and sell it you have to call it wine if it's over 7.

I agree with taking a gravity reading. Most, if not all, experienced cidermakers would prefer to use a hydrometer or refractometer, rather than nutritional info.

I'm not so sure about the tax definition of cider. Isn't alcohol taxed by the state? So, couldn't different states have different definitions? Also, do you really think some politician knows the proper definition of cider and wine? I don't know of any steadfast rule to differentiate cider from wine, but I'd prefer to rely on cidermakers. The first "definition" that comes to mind is the Beer Judge Certification Program, www.bjcp.org , which covers beer, cider, and mead. They list New England cider as having an ABV up to 13%.

 

[Daze]

ok you could do a bunch of math but it is so much easier to take a gravity reading. I mentioned that before since the op was asking about a time table. It's bad practice to use a set time for a fermentation. Thinking it ended before it did can lead to problems.

I agree, but obviously he does not have a hydrometer or he would have taken an SG reading. I was trying to HELP by calculating his ABV based on the information he provided.

The tax definition of cider is .5% to 7%, if it's over 7 it is considered wine. not to say people don't call anything with apple in it cider, no matter what the abv. Call whatever you make whatever you want but if you try and sell it you have to call it wine if it's over 7.

First of all the ONLY reason for the "tax definition" is so that when selling it you are getting taxed correctly. It is illegal for the home brewer to sell what he or she makes so that definition is irrelevant. Second and this is a big one. Yes that may be the definition here in the US but this forum has members from all over the world on it and there are "ciders" in other places that are higher than 7% I made a post once before saying the exact same thing "cider was 7% or less ABV" and the error of my statement was pointed out to me as I am pointing it out to you.

 

[jgerard]

I got a sg of 1.081 from 14 cans concentrate, and 2lbs brown sugar. With an fg around 1 I will have around 10%abv.

 

[brewingmeister]

First of all the ONLY reason for the "tax definition" is so that when selling it you are getting taxed correctly. It is illegal for the home brewer to sell what he or she makes so that definition is irrelevant. Second and this is a big one. Yes that may be the definition here in the US but this forum has members from all over the world on it and there are "ciders" in other places that are higher than 7% I made a post once before saying the exact same thing "cider was 7% or less ABV" and the error of my statement was pointed out to me as I am pointing it out to you.

Ok the status of whatever you call an apple based beverage comment was based for the US audience. It's all I've ever known since it is where I am located. However it is not irrelevant since there are home brewers here and there are pro brewers here.

I don't really care what anybody calls it...what matters is if its delicious right?

 

[Daze]

I don't really care what anybody calls it...what matters is if its delicious right?

couldn't agree more!!!

 

[Daze]

As to the definition of "cider" take a look at this thread I did the same thing you did and said 7% or less and some convincing arguments were made to the contrary. (first couple posts are about wine coolers not cider other than to compare the two)

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f25/ev...t-talking-about-adding-7up-glass-wine-291272/

 

[Zywo]

Two pounds of sugar? Is a good or bad idea to pitch in another pound of sugar? (1 week into fermentation). Using champagne yeast, how does that differ from ale yeast?

 

[brewingmeister]

Champagne yeast will have a higher alc tolerance than most ale yeast. An average ale yeast may stop around 10 where a champagne yeast will easily go to 18%. There are so many different kinds of yeast though and there are exceptions to every rule.

 

[truckjohn]

Hey forum goers,

so i decided to throw 13 cans of frozen concentrate, one cup white sugar and a packet of yeast with 5 gallons of water into my carboy and see what happens. any idea what ABV I will get? will this be a cider? Wine? Is letting it sit in the carboy 3 weeks than bottling for 1-2 weeks a good plan?

Thanks

David

Ok... Let's get this straight... There's no way to know what range ABV to expect because you didn't give enough information to figure it out....

Why?
1... Well... because different cans of concentrate reconstitute into different volumes.... Some are made to make 1 qt, some to 44 oz, some to 1/2 gallon, etc....
2... Because different concentrates give different sugar concentrations depending on the specific concentrate..... This is independent of #1....

In general - the high quality, expensive concentrates have both higher sugar levels per serving, AND reconstitute into larger volumes.... and vice versa with the cheap ones.. There is no free lunch....

Worst case - say you picked the cheap stuff that's supposed to reconstitute into 1 qt each.... Those may only have 4-oz sugar equivalent in an entire can.... so you mix up 13 cans worth - and you get a whole whopping 52 oz of sugar - or a little over 4 lbs - add another half cup to round it up to 4.75 lbs... and there you go.... You will have a pretty watery tasting batch that doesn't have a whole lot of alcohol either...

You need to go get a can of the same concentrate you used and figure out how much sugar is in that can specifically.... then you can take a swing at figuring out the rest...

The basic math is Servings x Sugar per Serving = Sugar per Can...

Thanks

 

[roymullins]

sounds like swill... why not get some good juice and do it right? isn't that much more and it will make a difference in the end... I guess you have already started- maybe mix it with rum and spice and make some apple pie liquour? next time make some real cider huh?

 

[dinnerstick]

it's not very helpful to come on here and just bash other people's techniques, i love a bit of spite as much as the next man but it's a bit misplaced here

(and what is 'liquour' exactly?)