Cider carbonation in bottle - Not optimal?

[beauvafr]

Heard is was not optimal to carbonate cider by adding sugar/dextrose/apple juice in the bottle.

Why so?

 

[JonM]

Sure it is. The catch is it has to be a very dry finished cider in order to work properly, but if you like dry cider, it's no problemo.

 

[dmtaylor]

I have had success carbonating cider in bottles, but it's not super consistent or reliable though. Usually you'll either get way too much carbonation, or not enough. Laziness I mean patience helps. What I do is when the specific gravity hits about 1.010, use gelatin and rack often to remove most of the yeast, then keep the cider cold for an extra month or so just to be sure it won't go crazy again, then prime and bottle. There's often but not always just a wee little bit of yeast left by that point that they will carbonate the bottles naturally if you are patient and use some priming sugar or backsweetening, but it takes a long time, maybe 3-4 months to carbonate, and only if you're lucky. You still run some risk of overcarb or none at all.

The most reliable way to carbonate cider is to force-carb in a keg.

Or, just learn to love it flat. Uncarbonated cider is very traditional, and carbonation should really not be a requirement or even a desire necessarily. Most wines are not carbonated. Cider is more like wine than anything. Drink it flat. It's still delicious. Or, take your chances.

 

[bucketnative]

I think the difference between the two responses so far may not be obvious...

JonM says, "no problemo", and he is right. Especially if you are only racking to secondary or even bottling straight from primary, as some people choose to do. Personally, I will rack to secondary (glass carboy) and let the cider clear for a month. Then, I siphon to a bottling bucket with enough sugar (the source of sugar depends on what I'm doing with the cider) to hit a desired carbonation level (for me, typically 3.0 vol). Bottle, and let it condition for at least a month, and I have yet to have difficulty achieving a nice sparkling cider.

dmtaylor says, "not consistent or reliable though." But, what is missing from his response is a bit of detail. From reading dmtaylor's other posts in this forum, it is more clear that he is racking to tertiary, even quaternary fermentation vessels over long periods of time, which greatly reduces the amount of viable yeast in suspension for carbonation. In his work process, keg carbing is most reliable.

So both answers are correct, depending on the process and your ultimate goal.

And, dmtaylor is right that flat, although "still" may sound more appetizing, cider is delicious. It make take a few glasses to appreciate it if you are used to sparkling cider.

 

[dmtaylor]

There's really no right or wrong way to do it....... as long as your bottles don't explode.

 

[MindenMan]

Bottle pasteurizing isn't as scary as it sounds if you are diligent in your process; this method allows you to have a sweet and fizzy cider at the same time. I have only lost one bottle using this process so it isn't rocket science. The biggest question is what do you consider to be a sweet cider, and how fizzy do you want it to be?

 

[JimRausch]

An alternative is the cooler pasteurization method. I've very successfully gotten semi-sweet, moderately carbonated ciders using this method. You do have to keep an eye on the level of carbonation and pasteurize at the right time. Last 2 times it's been 4 days, and 7 days post priming.

 

[Hankhill11]

In my opinion "Optimal" would mean the same or exact preferred carb level every time for any given cider you make. I don't have a kegging system which offers mechanical control, so i can't do that.

What i'm left with is bottle carbing. I find it inconsistent at worst, and pretty good at best. It could be me, but imo, the organic and natural process of bottle carbing is hard to duplicate time and time again. cider could mix with sugar differently each time and leave some pockets of sweeter liquid. Flavoring juices like apple or cherry can shift a little or start to settle over the course of a bottling session of 5 gallons. This leaves some bottles with more or less actual sugar than others.

On top of that, there's the yeast themselves, and the time factor. If you have a fully fermented out cider, time isn't as big an issue if you're simply carbing. If you want sweet, then you have to time your pasteurization day just right. Sometimes one day longer is way over carbed vs only slightly fizzy one day to soon. JimRausch mentioned this above. And if it gets over carbed, that's when pasteurization becomes a little risky.

Everyone has good and right answers here. As with so many things, the best answer is still 'it depends', but i dont think anyone can get as consistent with bottle carbing as you can with keg carbing.

 

[JimRausch]

I picked up one little trick on this forum a few years back (Nightshade or Nighthawk I think). When you bottle, do one in a plastic soda bottle. Squeeze the excess air out and cap with the screw-on cap. When that bottle is firm indicating it's carbonated, so are the rest of the bottles, and it's time to pasteurize. Takes the guess work out of the equation, mostly.

 

[Parsaver]

Bottle pasteurizing isn't as scary as it sounds if you are diligent in your process; this method allows you to have a sweet and fizzy cider at the same time. I have only lost one bottle using this process so it isn't rocket science. The biggest question is what do you consider to be a sweet cider, and how fizzy do you want it to be?

I've been bottle pasteurizing some really sweet ciders and as long as I am patient I don't have any problems. I used the Stovetop method stickied here and until this last batch it has worked like a charm.

The last batch, I had 8 gallons to bottle and instead of putting 6 bottles in at a time I put in 8. I doubled down and as I ran out of counter space I moved the full cases back to the cooler. As a result, not all of the bottles fully pasteurized and some of them started to get reallllly carbonated. to keep them from exploding we had to drink them all

As long as you are patient the stovetop/bottle carb works

 

[pepindavid]

Question for those who are carbing in bottles (and not kegging): I totally get that a cider that is not fully attenuated (still fermenting) as bottle bomb potential (hence the need to pasteurize if you want to stop the fermentation).

But what about situations where the cider stopped fermenting quite high (say 1.010, using S-04 and some unfermentables in the form of candi sugar)? Would it be safe to leave it a few weeks (to make sure it is actually done fermenting), and then adding sugar at bottling time for carbonation?

In other words: can a "stalled" fermentation that left some sugar behind be "reignited" by adding more sugar at bottling time (thus overshooting the predicted carb level)?

 

[dmtaylor]

Question for those who are carbing in bottles (and not kegging): I totally get that a cider that is not fully attenuated (still fermenting) as bottle bomb potential (hence the need to pasteurize if you want to stop the fermentation).

But what about situations where the cider stopped fermenting quite high (say 1.010, using S-04 and some unfermentables in the form of candi sugar)? Would it be safe to leave it a few weeks (to make sure it is actually done fermenting), and then adding sugar at bottling time for carbonation?

In other words: can a "stalled" fermentation that left some sugar behind be "reignited" by adding more sugar at bottling time (thus overshooting the predicted carb level)?

In my experience, a fermentation that stalls naturally and not because of cold temperatures or chemical additions will NOT overcarbonate if you add priming sugar in standard amounts (3/4 cup for 5 gallons or whatever). It doesn't wake up the yeast so much that they overshoot and blow up your bottles, unless like I said, the ferment was truly stalled due to temperature or you added chemicals but didn't hurt the yeast badly enough. If you are waiting for weeks and weeks and the gravity is not changing, then it should be safe to bottle with priming sugar, AND they will carbonate the bottles for you. This is precisely what I aim to do with my ciders -- sometimes I succeed, and sometimes if I am too lazy, then the yeasts are just too lazy and the cider ends up still as the day I bottled it. And that's okay, because I don't love carbonation as much as most people anyway -- it just isn't necessary to carbonate most ciders, they taste great still.

 

[Maylar]

Question for those who are carbing in bottles (and not kegging): I totally get that a cider that is not fully attenuated (still fermenting) as bottle bomb potential (hence the need to pasteurize if you want to stop the fermentation).

But what about situations where the cider stopped fermenting quite high (say 1.010, using S-04 and some unfermentables in the form of candi sugar)? Would it be safe to leave it a few weeks (to make sure it is actually done fermenting), and then adding sugar at bottling time for carbonation?

In other words: can a "stalled" fermentation that left some sugar behind be "reignited" by adding more sugar at bottling time (thus overshooting the predicted carb level)?

If the fermenting has stopped because the consumable sugar is gone, then yes you can just add priming sugar and carb normally. But you really shouldn't add any non fermentable sugar until bottling time. It doesn't contribute to the process and it just makes determining the finish point that much harder.

For instance, if I'm going to bottle carb I'll let the cider finish in secondary until dry (usually 1.000 or below), then rack to the bottling pot. Add sweetener (I use Xylitol) to desired level and prime as needed for carbonation.

 

[Dan_K]

I think I am going to back-sweeten my cider with Splenda but use sugar to bottle-prime. The only question is how much Splenda should I be using? I guess I will just have to test it out when I am getting ready to bottle. I have the granulated splenda that "measures like sugar" and I also have the packets which are slightly different.

 

[pepindavid]

In my experience, a fermentation that stalls naturally and not because of cold temperatures or chemical additions will NOT overcarbonate if you add priming sugar in standard amounts (3/4 cup for 5 gallons or whatever).

Thanks! That's what I thought. I'M going to leave it alone a couple more weeks to be on the safe side, verify that the fermentation has, indeed, stopped, and go ahead with the priming sugar at bottling time. And keep a close eye on carbonation levels.

For the record, here is the recipe:
-12 L of Rougemont apple juice (from Costco)
- 1/2 of Candi syrup (http://www.beergrains.com/belgian-ca...rup-amber-1lb/)
- 1 packet of S-04
OG : 1.050

Fermentation started quite vigorously within about 12h (at 68F, upped to 71 after 3 days). It slowed down after a week, and seemed to have completely stalled at 1.010.

I used the combination of s-04 and candi sugar because I was told that it would leave it not as dry as, say EC-1118 and table sugar. But I was expecting something along 1.003, maybe, not 1.010. It tastes really good, though, and I would be happy if it stays that way AND carbonates well. SWMBO loves semi-sweet carbonated cider, so hey, you know how it is.

 

[dmtaylor]

I think I am going to back-sweeten my cider with Splenda but use sugar to bottle-prime. The only question is how much Splenda should I be using? I guess I will just have to test it out when I am getting ready to bottle. I have the granulated splenda that "measures like sugar" and I also have the packets which are slightly different.

I have used Splenda in cider in the past. It tastes yucky in my opinion. If you love diet soda pop with Splenda I guess it might be okay, but to my palate it tastes terrible.

The artificial sweetener of choice for cider or anything else is xylitol. It tastes almost EXACTLY like real sugar and leaves no chemical taste at all.

 

[dmtaylor]

It tastes really good, though, and I would be happy if it stays that way AND carbonates well. SWMBO loves semi-sweet carbonated cider, so hey, you know how it is.

I think it will turn out wonderful. Enjoy it.

 

[SimonMM]

To all,

Thanks for the information.

I currently have a few 5-gallon carboys on the go, and I am trying to assess how much, exactly, sugar to add into the mix to receive a 'decent' carbonation.

From what I have read, 3 quarters of a cup of brown sugar (dissolved in half a cup of boiled water), should be sufficient to carbonate 5 gallons worth of juice. 1- Does this sound correct in terms of your experience?

In addition, once you have added the brown sugar into the carboy: 2- Is it best to leave the carboy overnight (to mix in with all the juice) and then separate into bottles the next day? Or, should I add the sugar into the juice, mix with a sterilised spoon and then immediately bottle?

I have tried to find the answers to these questions, but I can't seem to get the specifics.

Thank you in advance for any assistance

 

[dmtaylor]

From what I have read, 3 quarters of a cup of brown sugar (dissolved in half a cup of boiled water), should be sufficient to carbonate 5 gallons worth of juice. 1- Does this sound correct in terms of your experience?

In addition, once you have added the brown sugar into the carboy: 2- Is it best to leave the carboy overnight (to mix in with all the juice) and then separate into bottles the next day? Or, should I add the sugar into the juice, mix with a sterilised spoon and then immediately bottle?

3/4 cup sugar in 5 gallons is the right amount. Also it doesn't matter much if you use brown sugar, white sugar, honey, corn sugar, corn syrup... they'll all give you similar results.

You should bottle immediately, don't wait overnight.

 

[SimonMM]

3/4 cup sugar in 5 gallons is the right amount. Also it doesn't matter much if you use brown sugar, white sugar, honey, corn sugar, corn syrup... they'll all give you similar results.

You should bottle immediately, don't wait overnight.

Thanks very much for the information, dmtaylor. I am excited to see how things turn out now

Cheers

 

[oldmate]

Here is a good priming calculator for you to use http://www.brewersfriend.com/beer-priming-calculator/ or alternatively you can download the app for your phone.

There are differences in carbonation between different types of sugars and syrups (honey/maple etc). I'm not sure why everyone else is having such a rough time with carbonation but if you're thorough in technique there is no reason why you cannot have reproducible results every single time. As mentioned above, read the entire stickied thread on bottle pasteurising if you are planning on sweet.

 

[SimonMM]

This is very helpful! Thanks so much

 

[billyb56]

I do it all the time however I make sure the gravity is 1.000 or less before bottling. I use fizz tabs, 1-2 tablets depending on the size of the bottle and what level carbonation I want. Never had an explosion yet.

 

[SimonMM]

I do it all the time however I make sure the gravity is 1.000 or less before bottling. I use fizz tabs, 1-2 tablets depending on the size of the bottle and what level carbonation I want. Never had an explosion yet.

Thank you, billyb56.

I opted for the cane sugar route first, just to see how things go. Plus, I live in a country where brewing is, well, not allowed It would probably raise the wrong kind of eyebrows if ordered some of these online, and would make for a strange conversation at customs

How long, typically, does carbonation take? I have read 4-5 days at room temperature and other sites say 2 weeks, so I am guessing somewhere in between?

Thanks

 

[oldmate]

I would wait at least 2 weeks

 

[MindenMan]

How long does carbonation take, is not written in stone. How long was the cider in secondary if at all. What is your "average" room/storage temperature? Which yeast did you use? How many volumes of CO2 do you desire to have? The truth is, it takes as long as it takes, and that is how long it takes. I am being sincere here, honestly. Cider always tastes better after bottle aging, so if you can avoid getting in a hurry wait at least 1 month after bottling to "taste", I would suggest longer; more like three months if possible.
Even though if you (also meaning me) use the same recipe every time, the batches will not finish exactly the same. The weather changes, the barometric pressure goes up or goes down, there was a cold snap or unseasonably warm weather, etc., etc.. The variances will likely be very small, but their occurring is still likely.

 

[Maylar]

The weather changes, the barometric pressure goes up or goes down, there was a cold snap or unseasonably warm weather, etc., etc.. The variances will likely be very small, but their occurring is still likely.

I swear, the phases of the moons of Jupiter have an effect on my ferments. No two have ever been the same.

 

[SimonMM]

Midenman and Maylar,

Thanks for the info.

I left the original 5 gallons in the first carboy for one month, added the 3/4 cup of cane sugar, bottled immediately and then two weeks for the carbonation.

The carbonation was very good, and I was somewhat scared at opening the bottles because of the amount of fizz that came out. In terms of this, I have a further few questions and would welcome any advice.

1- Will the carbonation 'settle down' after a while and 'stabilise'? I don't want to have bottles bursting the longer the juice is left.

2- Initially, when I poured the juice into the glass there were lots of bubbles, but the big bubbles disappeared before I finished my drink. The drink was still fizzy, but not as much as I expected. If I left the juice for longer in the bottle 1,2 or 3 months), would this produce a longer carbonation experience in the glass?

3- Once you have bottled your juice, is it preferable to leave the juice at room temperature and then put it in the fridge when you want it cold, or just add ice?

Thanks again in advance for any suggestions

​

 

[dmtaylor]

You're unlikely to have full carbonation for several months (like 2 or 3). So this is only the beginning. Gushers and explosions are possible so you should monitor by opening another bottle every couple of weeks and if it seems dangerous then chill all bottles down as cold as you can. I do believe the bubbles will get smaller in size and not dissipate as quickly once the carbonation really does settle in over time.

I am not a fan of ice in my cider. I keep most of my bottles in the cellar (55-60 F) and just a few bottles at a time go into the refrigerator for enjoyment.

 

[SimonMM]

Fantastic advice. Thanks very much. This is all really helpful.

This weekend I will be bottling the two five gallon carboys and then I have another one to bottle a few days later. I will immediately put another 3 carboys 'back on the go' as I am excited to try by adding some Steviana into the next batch or two just to sweeten them up slightly.

At the moment I am using Hollinger Austrian Apple Juice (100% directly pressed) and it seems to be producing consistent results. The taste is a little sour after the first few weeks, and then gets 'smoother' towards the end of the 4 weeks. I have noticed that then, after the carbonation period of an additional two weeks, the sourness has subsided enough, or I have become more accustomed to the taste, but I will still try and add some zero calorie sugar to take the edge off.


I will keep updating as I go along, and will offer my limited advice to anyone who needs it.

Thanks again, dmtaylor

 

[ohiochris]

I carbonate in the bottle using apple juice concentrate and then stovetop pasteurize in the bottle ( I sacrifice a few bottles for testing ....trying a bottle every day or two. Once its just right I pasteurize ) .....pretty simple and it comes out great , perfect for a bubbling alcoholic cider. I just have to stay on top of the carbonation process and make sure I don't let it get too far.

 

[billsea]

I wait until the gravity is about 1.010. This usually takes about 10 days with US-05 at 65F. Then I bottle including one plastic soda bottle. No additional sugar. I wait until the soda bottle is hard, this usually takes another 2-3 days. Then heat pasteurize. I am drinking delicious naturally sweet and carbonated cider in two weeks total. I think this way is fast and easy. Works for me. If you want a sweeter or less sweet cider you adjust by bottling at a slightly higher or lower gravity. I have tried letting the fermentation complete then bottle, but a still, dry, (tasteless) cider is not for me.

 

[SimonMM]

I wanted to update you on the current situation, and to pick your brains, if I may?

After 4 weeks of waiting, I added 3 quarters of a cup of white cane sugar into the 5-gallon plastic carboy. The juice had been in the same carboy for the entire 4 weeks, I did not complete a second racking.

The sugar was added and after one hour I syphoned the juice into 15 Ikea Korken Bottles (the ones with the stopper at the top).

Two days later, I noticed that some bottles had very few bubbles at the top of their individual bottles, whilst others had copious amounts of bubbles furiously bubbling at the top and from the bottom of the bottle. Although this bubbling was what I was looking for, I was genuinely concerned as to whether the bottles would explode.

Today, I came back to an exploded bottle (not one of the Ikea bottles), and so I decided to let some of the gas out from the bottles by opening them. It was quite a frightening experience, as I was unsure as to whether the bottles would explode in my hand as I uncorked the bottles. Thankfully, this did not happen, but, like I said, I was pretty concerned.

So, to my questions.

1- Is it better to just leave the bottles alone regardless of how much they are bubbling as this will eventually subside?

2- Could opening the bottles, when they are showing signs of heavy carbonation, lead to bottles exploding in my hand? Some of the popping sounds that I am hearing when I open the bottles is quite 'worrying'? Have you, or anyone else, experienced this before?

3- If I add less sugar, would this reduce the amount of carbonation, or perhaps make it more subtle over a longer period?

4- Would a second racking make explosions less likely? I am thinking that reducing the amount of contact the 'new sugar (3/4 cup) has with the yeast at the bottom of the carboy might help with fewer explosions.

You also mentioned that putting the juice into the fridge may help. Is this something you would also recommend?

As always, thanks in advance for the responses.

All the best,
Simon M.

 

[dmtaylor]

It sounds like you didn't mix the priming sugar. Did you just let it sink to the bottom of the fermenter? If that's the case then some bottles got all the sugar while other bottles got pretty much nothing. You have to dissolve the priming sugar in a little water or cider before bottling. I think that's the problem.

Even if I'm wrong, the only solution at this point might be to WEAR GLOVES AND SAFETY GLASSES, pop every bottle back open, pour them all into a fermenter again, wait a week or two for it to all ferment out again, and re-prime and re-bottle. If you're already getting explosions, I'm sorry but it's just going to get worse, and keeping the cider cold isn't going to prevent further explosions. You have to start over.

Stay safe.

 

[SimonMM]

Sorry, but I forgot to mention that I did mix the sugar in with some water before I added it to the mix. I added 3 quarters of a cup of sugar with half a cup of water (which is what I did before) and there were no explosions previously.

Not sure what to do now.

I checked today, and there were no further explosions, so I am hoping that it was just a weaker bottle (fingers crossed).

I will monitor over the next few days and see how it goes. In future I might just leave it as still cider Still tastes pretty good

Thanks for the info and I will keep you informed.

 

[MarkKF]

I've had bottles blow before, they seemed to be bottles I reused several times, including stovetop pasteurizing. I'm sure they were weakened.

 

[globell]

So what is a perfect level of carbination when you open one of the bottles to test? Should it foam up to the top of the neck or over?
I bottled some cider and stove top pasteurized last week. When I opened a test bottle (after 24 hrs) it foamed up and over the neck but didn't spill much. Maybe 1 tbsp. STP and just opened one tonight. It's completely flat. Do I just need to wait? It did hiss when I opened it though.

 

[Maylar]

The perfect level is up to you... within limits. If you wait too long before pasteurizing you can get bottle bombs. There are a number of reasons why carbonation can be different between bottles. Usually it's because the priming sugar wasn't the same.

Once you've pasteurized it won't get any bubblier.

 

[globell]

I like lots of bubbles. Without experiencing what the ideal test bottles (before pasteurization) sound like and how the react when opening is the question. For lots of bubbles, should I be looking for an active opening and pour but not so much that it gushes?

 

[Maylar]

Like I said - there are limits. I don't know the maximum you can get and still pasteurize, but it's nowhere near a sparkling cider like Angry Orchard.

My ciders are carb'ed to about 2.4 volumes. I get a slight hiss when opening. Gushers is way too much. If you want really high carb then consider kegging.